what gains should i expect from my havoc cycle?

[cdawg93]

im 21 years old and have been lifting for 4 years, im 5'9 165lbs 10%bf, use to be 125lbs 15%bf. my first cycle was about 3 months ago and my gains were pretty $hitty to say the least, it was a 4weeker of androhard/trenazone. i even made better gains during my pct with the same diet and everything. so this cycle im gonna be going with something a little more popular. . .EPISTANE/HAVOC =D. now im gonna be eating only a couple hundred cals over maintnance because i want to gain NO fat or even lose fat if thats possible? gonna run my havoc like so 30/30/40/40/40/40 (is 40 too much? cause the bottle says never to go over 3 pills >.<) and YES im running a SERM for pct. . .im hoping to come out of this with a 5+lbs of PURE muscle. do you think that sounds right? and do you think i could lose maybe lose 1-3% of bodyfat? thanks yall ^_^

[Rob415]

Your dose is good, no need to go higher, its a powerful steroid. However it worries me that you didnt gain on your last cycle. Probably means your doing something wrong lol

Sent from my DROID X2

[cdawg93]

Your dose is good, no need to go higher, its a powerful steroid. However it worries me that you didnt gain on your last cycle. Probably means your doing something wrong lol

Sent from my DROID X2

well i was kinda expecting like crazy roid gains because i was a newbie to all this and i prob was eating around 500cals below maintance thinkin id lose fat and gain muscle like crazy, but it deff didnt work that way =). . .also! should i run cycle assist through cycle AND pct?

[bradray]

The more you eat the more you gain. Clean eating = muscle gained and shitty eating = fat gained plain and simple

[lolhai]

Eat like a fucking horse on cycle. Easier to lose fat than it is to gain muscle.

[HonedFury]

The more you eat the more you gain. Clean eating = muscle gained and shitty eating = fat gained plain and simple

Pretty sure if you eat the same macros of good vs shit there would be no difference apart from the micronutrients and fibre etc... shitty eating just generally has a lot more calories. Massive calorie surplus = fat gained

[bradray]

Pretty sure if you eat the same macros of good vs shit there would be no difference apart from the micronutrients and fibre etc... shitty eating just generally has a lot more calories. Massive calorie surplus = fat gained

Clean eating is generally lower in calories than shit eating, thus better body results. Weight training of course needs to be on as well. Caloric surplus in the clean category will yield better and leaner gains than that of a dirty bulk

[HonedFury]

Clean eating is generally lower in calories than shit eating, thus better body results. Weight training of course needs to be on as well. Caloric surplus in the clean category will yield better and leaner gains than that of a dirty bulk

Yeah training definitely needs to be on track.

And yeah clean eating is generally lower in calories.

But you can't say that a surplus of the same amount with one being clean and the other dirty, with the same macros, would yield different results..

Also, what is "clean"? White rice? Bread? Or no grains? What's dirty?

[bradray]

Yeah training definitely needs to be on track.

And yeah clean eating is generally lower in calories.

But you can't say that a surplus of the same amount with one being clean and the other dirty, with the same macros, would yield different results..

Also, what is "clean"? White rice? Bread? Or no grains? What's dirty?

Clean is whole grains, brown rices, black beans, lean meats
Dirty is just eating bullshit like chicken patties and big macs etc

I don't get where you think a surplus of dirty foods are going to give the same results as a surplus of clean dieting? A caloric surplus in a clean scenario is a lot better than a dirty caloric surplus and you will get different results i guarantee it

[HonedFury]

Clean is whole grains, brown rices, black beans, lean meats
Dirty is just eating bullshit like chicken patties and big macs etc

I don't get where you think a surplus of dirty foods are going to give the same results as a surplus of clean dieting? A caloric surplus in a clean scenario is a lot better than a dirty caloric surplus and you will get different results i guarantee it

All I'm saying is that this kind of thinking is weird and I don't know what it's based off..

a) what makes you think that whole grains are healthy?

b) with the same macros (clearly much harder to attain with a bad diet), one would get the same gains - note again "with the same macros"

c) I in no way condone a bad diet, am just sick of everyone always saying that you have to eat rice and chicken or you won't gain muscle. You could gain the same with just eating protein powder and ice cream as long as you get the same amounts of protein and carbs etc. You won't be as healthy obviously, and doing that long term especially would be very detrimental to cholesterol, insulin resistance etc., but arguing against basic thermodynamics is weird and confusing to me.

[bradray]

All I'm saying is that this kind of thinking is weird and I don't know what it's based off..

a) what makes you think that whole grains are healthy?

b) with the same macros (clearly much harder to attain with a bad diet), one would get the same gains - note again "with the same macros"

c) I in no way condone a bad diet, am just sick of everyone always saying that you have to eat rice and chicken or you won't gain muscle. You could gain the same with just eating protein powder and ice cream as long as you get the same amounts of protein and carbs etc. You won't be as healthy obviously, and doing that long term especially would be very detrimental to cholesterol, insulin resistance etc., but arguing against basic thermodynamics is weird and confusing to me.

Not sure where you got i said eat chicken and rice or you will not gain muscle, but they are good staples of a healthy diet. My diet consists of tuna, salmon, chicken, oats, whole wheat bread, peanuts, almonds and peanut butter, lean hamburger, occasional pizza and lots of whey protein along with whole grain cereals like raisin bran for fiber. I would consider myself to be a fairly clean eater but not spot on clean. I have been at both ends of the spectrum. I have been as high as 270, and as low as 145 and i know personally what the differences are between eating clean and healthy, and eating dirty and unhealthy. I had a gut that looked like i was 9 months pregnant at my heaviest because all i ate was bullshit like mcdonalds, wendys etc etc. Don't get me wrong i still eat out alot it is where i am right now with life and schedules, kids activities and what not, but i also try to eat clean and watch calories when i eat out. Subways, taco bell and chipotles are my main staples for eating out ( also eat at a small neighborhood deli every now and then ) And i do not understand the question ( what makes you think whole grains are healthy? )
Whole grains. These are unrefined grains that haven't had their bran and germ removed by milling. Whole grains are better sources of fiber and other important nutrients, such as selenium, potassium and magnesium. Whole grains are either single foods, such as brown rice and popcorn, or ingredients in products, such as buckwheat in pancakes or whole wheat in bread.

Refined grains. Refined grains are milled, a process that strips out both the bran and germ to give them a finer texture and extend their shelf life. The refining process also removes many nutrients, including fiber. Refined grains include white flour, white rice, white bread and degermed cornflower. Many breads, cereals, crackers, desserts and pastries are made with refined grains, too.
Enriched grains. Enriched means that some of the nutrients lost during processing are added back in. Some enriched grains are grains that have lost B vitamins added back in — but not the lost fiber. Fortifying means adding in nutrients that don't occur naturally in the food. Most refined grains are enriched, and many enriched grains also are fortified with other vitamins and minerals, such as folic acid and iron. Some countries require certain refined grains to be enriched. Whole grains may or may not be fortified.

Eating ice cream and protein shakes compared to eating chicken and rice are 2 totally different ball games. Mass wise, dirt and clean are probably the same as long as the calories are, but the quality of mass put on with dirty as compared to clean is by no means comparable at all

[Rob415]

well i was kinda expecting like crazy roid gains because i was a newbie to all this and i prob was eating around 500cals below maintance thinkin id lose fat and gain muscle like crazy, but it deff didnt work that way =). . .also! should i run cycle assist through cycle AND pct?

Eat a little above maintenance. Youll like your cycle much more

Eat like a fucking horse on cycle. Easier to lose fat than it is to gain muscle.

But a lot of people lose muscle when they cut.... this is why i never dirty bulk, but i never cut. I always lean bulk...


Sent from my DROID X2

[Baddog671]

With a clean diet, good routine, and 30/30/40/40/40/40, eat 500cals over a day and you'll definitely pack on that 5lbs. of lean muscle in 6 weeks.
-
Eat 500cals less a day and you'll definitely drop alittle BF%.
-
Pick one, but at 165lbs, I'd suggest the first

[discs]

instead of worry about clean eating or not, just get your protein in throughout the day and actually count your calories.

on 40mg of epi I dont think youre going to be too catabolic. id even throw in some morning cardio if my goal was fat loss.

[HonedFury]

Not sure where you got i said eat chicken and rice or you will not gain muscle, but they are good staples of a healthy diet. My diet consists of tuna, salmon, chicken, oats, whole wheat bread, peanuts, almonds and peanut butter, lean hamburger, occasional pizza and lots of whey protein along with whole grain cereals like raisin bran for fiber. I would consider myself to be a fairly clean eater but not spot on clean. I have been at both ends of the spectrum. I have been as high as 270, and as low as 145 and i know personally what the differences are between eating clean and healthy, and eating dirty and unhealthy. I had a gut that looked like i was 9 months pregnant at my heaviest because all i ate was bullshit like mcdonalds, wendys etc etc. Don't get me wrong i still eat out alot it is where i am right now with life and schedules, kids activities and what not, but i also try to eat clean and watch calories when i eat out. Subways, taco bell and chipotles are my main staples for eating out ( also eat at a small neighborhood deli every now and then ) And i do not understand the question ( what makes you think whole grains are healthy? )
Whole grains. These are unrefined grains that haven't had their bran and germ removed by milling. Whole grains are better sources of fiber and other important nutrients, such as selenium, potassium and magnesium. Whole grains are either single foods, such as brown rice and popcorn, or ingredients in products, such as buckwheat in pancakes or whole wheat in bread.

Refined grains. Refined grains are milled, a process that strips out both the bran and germ to give them a finer texture and extend their shelf life. The refining process also removes many nutrients, including fiber. Refined grains include white flour, white rice, white bread and degermed cornflower. Many breads, cereals, crackers, desserts and pastries are made with refined grains, too.
Enriched grains. Enriched means that some of the nutrients lost during processing are added back in. Some enriched grains are grains that have lost B vitamins added back in — but not the lost fiber. Fortifying means adding in nutrients that don't occur naturally in the food. Most refined grains are enriched, and many enriched grains also are fortified with other vitamins and minerals, such as folic acid and iron. Some countries require certain refined grains to be enriched. Whole grains may or may not be fortified.

Eating ice cream and protein shakes compared to eating chicken and rice are 2 totally different ball games. Mass wise, dirt and clean are probably the same as long as the calories are, but the quality of mass put on with dirty as compared to clean is by no means comparable at all

I just realised how o/t this whole discussion has been! Sorry OP!!

I understand completely where you're coming from and I agree that eating well is much better and will produce better results. I was just trying to stress that people shouldn't say "eating dirty will give you dirty gains". Your body doesn't distinguish between the sources of your macronutrients, and is simply affected by antioxidants, glycemic load, vitamins, minerals, fat qualities, etc, which is what makes certain foods better than others.

I asked that about grains because I believe eating heaps of grains (whole or otherwise) isn't the best for you, and nitpicking is where it was at in that part of our conversation - i.e. a grain is not a natural component of the human diet due to the processing it needs to become edible; contains many anti-nutrients and other bad things. I was just stressing that people call certain things 'clean' based on their own custom classification and it's too difficult to interpret when someone says "eat clean" because of this.

Your last sentence is pretty much what I was talking about the entire time - yes it will be the same quality mass. You will possibly have horrible GI problems and bad cholesterol etc, but if you could actually hit the same macros then you would have the same lbm gains (as I said before, your body doesn't distinguish - it is all broken down to the base components).

I'm happy to continue this discussion via PM btw, sorry again OP for derailing.

[bradray]

I just realised how o/t this whole discussion has been! Sorry OP!!

I understand completely where you're coming from and I agree that eating well is much better and will produce better results. I was just trying to stress that people shouldn't say "eating dirty will give you dirty gains". Your body doesn't distinguish between the sources of your macronutrients, and is simply affected by antioxidants, glycemic load, vitamins, minerals, fat qualities, etc, which is what makes certain foods better than others.

I asked that about grains because I believe eating heaps of grains (whole or otherwise) isn't the best for you, and nitpicking is where it was at in that part of our conversation - i.e. a grain is not a natural component of the human diet due to the processing it needs to become edible; contains many anti-nutrients and other bad things. I was just stressing that people call certain things 'clean' based on their own custom classification and it's too difficult to interpret when someone says "eat clean" because of this.

Your last sentence is pretty much what I was talking about the entire time - yes it will be the same quality mass. You will possibly have horrible GI problems and bad cholesterol etc, but if you could actually hit the same macros then you would have the same lbm gains (as I said before, your body doesn't distinguish - it is all broken down to the base components).

I'm happy to continue this discussion via PM btw, sorry again OP for derailing.

It wasn't dicks ( oops discs ) thread we hijacked anyways I appologize too OP i will lay off of homofury ( oops honedfury ) geesh what is wrong with me today

[HonedFury]

It wasn't dicks ( oops discs ) thread we hijacked anyways I appologize too OP i will lay off of homofury ( oops honedfury ) geesh what is wrong with me today

Lol yep thanks for "laying off" man I couldn't handle all your shit ;-)

[Broscience101]

Not sure where you got i said eat chicken and rice or you will not gain muscle, but they are good staples of a healthy diet. My diet consists of tuna, salmon, chicken, oats, whole wheat bread, peanuts, almonds and peanut butter, lean hamburger, occasional pizza and lots of whey protein along with whole grain cereals like raisin bran for fiber. I would consider myself to be a fairly clean eater but not spot on clean. I have been at both ends of the spectrum. I have been as high as 270, and as low as 145 and i know personally what the differences are between eating clean and healthy, and eating dirty and unhealthy. I had a gut that looked like i was 9 months pregnant at my heaviest because all i ate was bullshit like mcdonalds, wendys etc etc. Don't get me wrong i still eat out alot it is where i am right now with life and schedules, kids activities and what not, but i also try to eat clean and watch calories when i eat out. Subways, taco bell and chipotles are my main staples for eating out ( also eat at a small neighborhood deli every now and then ) And i do not understand the question ( what makes you think whole grains are healthy? )
Whole grains. These are unrefined grains that haven't had their bran and germ removed by milling. Whole grains are better sources of fiber and other important nutrients, such as selenium, potassium and magnesium. Whole grains are either single foods, such as brown rice and popcorn, or ingredients in products, such as buckwheat in pancakes or whole wheat in bread.

Refined grains. Refined grains are milled, a process that strips out both the bran and germ to give them a finer texture and extend their shelf life. The refining process also removes many nutrients, including fiber. Refined grains include white flour, white rice, white bread and degermed cornflower. Many breads, cereals, crackers, desserts and pastries are made with refined grains, too.
Enriched grains. Enriched means that some of the nutrients lost during processing are added back in. Some enriched grains are grains that have lost B vitamins added back in — but not the lost fiber. Fortifying means adding in nutrients that don't occur naturally in the food. Most refined grains are enriched, and many enriched grains also are fortified with other vitamins and minerals, such as folic acid and iron. Some countries require certain refined grains to be enriched. Whole grains may or may not be fortified.

Eating ice cream and protein shakes compared to eating chicken and rice are 2 totally different ball games. Mass wise, dirt and clean are probably the same as long as the calories are, but the quality of mass put on with dirty as compared to clean is by no means comparable at all

So you clean your food in the shower or the dishwasher or what? I don't get it.....

Stop bro sciencing and making things complicated. As long as the calories and macro content are the exact same, results would be the exact same. Your blood pressure and digestive tract might not like you afterward, but the gains would be nearly identical.

[bradray]

So you clean your food in the shower or the dishwasher or what? I don't get it.....

Stop bro sciencing and making things complicated. As long as the calories and macro content are the exact same, results would be the exact same. Your blood pressure and digestive tract might not like you afterward, but the gains would be nearly identical.

Yeah i clean my food before i eat it so what of it. To each their own i guess. If you want to eat turds to get your calories then have at it. 2 banana splits a day sounds like a great diet for gaining mass. Throw in a couple big macs and large fries and you will be good to go and well above maintenance for great gains

[Broscience101]

Yeah i clean my food before i eat it so what of it. To each their own i guess. If you want to eat turds to get your calories then have at it. 2 banana splits a day sounds like a great diet for gaining mass. Throw in a couple big macs and large fries and you will be good to go and well above maintenance for great gains

That's clearly not what I said...... This is why people in the bodybuilding community can't have nice things. You have people preaching hardcore bro science, which has clearly been disproved.

As long as you're hitting your numbers each and every day, it doesn't matter what you eat. I never said eat mass amounts of food and go on a dreamer bulk.

Also my username is a joke.... I don't preach bro science.

[Jameson653]

Yea meal frequency aside which I have read a lot of contradicting things on. It's all about total calories and protein consumption. As long as your in excess with enough protein you will gain muscle, if you exceed your maximum possible muscle growth calories then excess goes into fat in varying percentages depending on which macro. Obviously fat turns into body fat easier than carbs and especially protein.


I eat my ice cream with superdrol sprinkles

[HoLLo]

My last Havoc cycle began at 30, but I was loving it at 50 and even a few days at 60. I would get 3 bottles of Epi and START at 40 and work up to 60. My next cycle will include some Test E, and 60mg Epi daily, and some Trenavar.

My strength gains went up FAST and I went from 209 to 223 at my heaviest in a 6 week cycle.