Dymethazine no "safer" than SD???

[Lebron]

According to I-Force peeps, Dymethazine is suppose to be like SD without the side effects, therefore "safer" to use, but according to Bill. L in the latest MD magazine, he claims that Dymethazine is no "safer" than SD/other SD clones. Any thoughts on his opinion? Anybody ran both compounds and can compare sides to a SD clone? Not trying to start anything, just wanting some discussion on this b/c I see a lot of people running Dymethazine at longer/higher dosed cycles than they normally would do on a SD clone.

[VaughnTrue]

Originally Posted by Lebron

According to I-Force peeps, Dymethazine is suppose to be like SD without the side effects, therefore "safer" to use, but according to Bill. L in the latest MD magazine, he claims that Dymethazine is no "safer" than SD/other SD clones. Any thoughts on his opinion? Anybody ran both compounds and can compare sides to a SD clone? Not trying to start anything, just wanting some discussion on this b/c I see a lot of people running Dymethazine at longer/higher dosed cycles than they normally would do on a SD clone.

we have clinical studies documenting the low liver toxicity + shutdown ability with dymethazine. he either is not aware of the publications, or wishes to believe otherwise...for reasons we are currently unaware of

[TRex]

Originally Posted by VaughnTrue

we have clinical studies documenting the low liver toxicity + shutdown ability with dymethazine. he either is not aware of the publications, or wishes to believe otherwise...for reasons we are currently unaware of

link plz?

[Lebron]

Originally Posted by VaughnTrue

we have clinical studies documenting the low liver toxicity + shutdown ability with dymethazine. he either is not aware of the publications, or wishes to believe otherwise...for reasons we are currently unaware of

Yea I've seen the studies as I've thought about running it myself but as you know Bill L. is like PA, especially on the intrawebz in that everything they say must be true b/c of who they are. Not hating on either one of them b/c they do know their shit but I hate when people believe something just b/c a "guru" says it to be true.

[J2jud]

Originally Posted by VaughnTrue

we have clinical studies documenting the low liver toxicity + shutdown ability with dymethazine. he either is not aware of the publications, or wishes to believe otherwise...for reasons we are currently unaware of

Here is part of a paragraph from Anabolics 2007. I believe this is where his information comes from... Have you tried sending him the studies you have?

"Note that in studies administering 20mg per day to patients for 45-95 days. dimethazine was shown to induce modest to moderate bilirubinemia (excess bilirubin in the blood, indicative of hapatic stress) in close to 50% of patients. Approximately 25% of the patients noticed substantial increases in serum transaminases. These results suggest this steroid has a significant level of hepatoxicity." - William Llewellyn

He listed his sources as:

446 - Protracted action of protein anabolism in gynecological oncology and its effect on hapatic function.Dambrosio F, Donatelli G, et al. University of Milan (1963)
445 - Biological determination of the secondary hormonal activity of dimethazine. Lupo, C, Matscher R, et al. Bolletino - societa italiana di biologia Sperimentale 38 (1962):990-4

[thauncle]

found this posted by SwingGuru

This is bolazine, which is essentially two molecules of methylmasteron bound together. In vivo it breaks up into methylmasteron.

There is a small amount of info on it....

Here is an abstract where females took 20mg for 45+ days...and it appears that less than half had any liver issues.

Protracted action of protein anabolism in gynecological oncology and its effect on hepatic function. Dambrosio, F.; Donatelli, G. Fontana. Univ. Milan, Cancro, Il (1963), 16(5), 553-604. Journal language unavailable. CAN 62:11656 AN 1965:11656 CAPLUS

Abstract

Twenty mg. of dimetazine, an anabolizing steroid, was administered daily for 45-95 days to 11 gynecological patients. More than 50% of the cases showed no change in the bilirubinemia, the others showed modest to moderate increases. The glutamic-oxalacetic and the glutamic-pyruvic transaminases of the serum increased greatly in 3 patients. The albumins concn. usually decreased in the course of the treatment, while the globulins concn. did not change.

A new steroid with protein anabolic activity: dimethazine. De Ruggieri, P.; Matscher, R.; Gandolfi, C.; Chiaramonti, D.; Lupo, C.; Pietra, E.; Cavalli, R. Ormonoterap. Richter, Milan, Archivio di Scienze Biologiche (Bologna) (1963), 47(1), 1-19. CODEN: ASBIAL ISSN: 0004-0169. Journal language unavailable. CAN 60:46973 AN 1964:46973 CAPLUS

Abstract

Dimethazine (I) was evaluated for the following biol. activities: androgenic, N retaining, P retaining, and Ca retaining. The increase in uptake of -aminoisobutyric acid-1-14C and the increase in body wt. were also investigated. Data obtained, tabulated, and compared to those obtained with methyltestosterone established that I is a protein anabolic steroid with weak androgenic activity.

No progestenic/estrogenic activity...so this would differentiate it from its chemical relative oxymetholone (anadrol)

Biological determination of the secondary hormonal activities of dimethazine. Lupo, C.; Matscher, R.; Ruggieri, P. De. Lab. Ric. Ormonoter. Richter, Milan., Bollettino - Societa Italiana di Biologia Sperimentale (1962), 38 990-4. CODEN: BSIBAC ISSN: 0037-8771. Journal language unavailable. CAN 58:34624 AN 1963:34624 CAPLUS

Abstract

Expts. with rats and rabbits showed that dimethazine, 2,17-dimethyl-5-androstan-17-ol-3,3'-azine has, in contrast to its protein-anabolic properties, practically no estrogenic, progestational, and corticoid activity. Similarly, it has no effect on liver glycogen, and no antiinflammatory action on the anaphylactoid edema.

Comparisons with methyltest, winny, anadrol and test prop showed better mytropic effect on the castrates with methylmasteron.

Biological activity of dimethazine in the protein-anabolic field. Matscher, R.; Lupo, C.; De, P. Ruggieri. Lab. Ric. Ormonoter. Richter, Milan, Bollettino - Societa Italiana di Biologia Sperimentale (1962), 38 988-90. CODEN: BSIBAC ISSN: 0037-8771. Journal language unavailable. CAN 58:34623 AN 1963:34623 CAPLUS

Abstract

Dimethazine (I), 2,17-dimethyl-5-androstan-17-ol-3,3'-azine, was compared to methyltestosterone, oxymethalone, androstanazole and testosterone propionate in its protein-anabolic activity. The tests were made on castrated rats with a single hypodermic injection of 250 , on young male and female rats with increasing daily oral doses from 100 to 1000 for 30 days, and on adult male rats with daily oral doses of 1000 for 25 days. It was shown that I did not interfere with the growth of young animals; that adult rats treated with I gained, on an av., 20 g. more in wt. than the controls; and that I had a greater myotropic effect on castrates than the other steroids, and induced a higher N retention than methyltestosterone in adult males.

[thauncle]

this stuff is hard to get a hold of without going through research sites or having full access to medical libraries .

SBiological activity of dimethazine in the protein-anabolic field. Matscher, R.; Lupo, C.; De, P. Ruggieri. Lab. Ric. Ormonoter. Richter, Milan, Bollettino - Societa Italiana di Biologia Sperimentale (1962), 38 988-90. CODEN: BSIBAC ISSN: 0037-8771. Journal language unavailable. CAN 58:34623 AN 1963:34623 CAPLUS
Abstract
Dimethazine was compared to methyltestosterone, oxymethalone, androstanazole and testosterone propionate in its protein-anabolic activity. The tests were made on castrated rats with a single hypodermic injection of 250 , on young male and female rats with increasing daily oral doses from 100 to 1000 for 30 days, and on adult male rats with daily oral doses of 1000 for 25 days. It was shown that I did not interfere with the growth of young animals; that adult rats treated with I gained, on an av., 20 g. more in wt. than the controls; and that I had a greater myotropic effect on castrates than the other steroids, and induced a higher N retention than methyltestosterone in adult males.

Antigonadotropic action of a new steroid with anabolizing activity studied in the anterior pituitary gland of the castrated rat Author Beghelli, V.; Mavrulis, A. Organization Univ. Bologna, Italy Publication Source Biochimica Applicata (1962), 9(No. 4), 179-88 Identifier-CODEN BIALAY ISSN 0006-2987
Abstract
Seventy-five female rats were divided into 5 groups; 15 served as controls; 60 were castrated and among these, 15 were treated with 17.alpha.-ethyl-19-nortestosterone (I), 15 with 17.alpha.-methyl-17.beta.-hydroxyandrosta-1,4-dien-3-one (II), and 15 with 2.alpha.,(Dimetazine) (III). With each of these steroids, treatment began 48 hrs. after the operation, with 1 mg. of the drug suspended in 0.5 ml. of saline (1% Tween 80 as suspending agent) once daily for 20 days by gavage. The last 15 received the vehicle only, according to the same schedule. The rats were sacrificed 24 hrs. after the last dose, and their pituitary glands and uteri examd. The castrates which received the vehicle only showed very pronounced gonadotropic pituitary hyperfunction, such as formation of castration cells and an increase in basophilic cells. Animals treated with I showed no castration cells at all, and only a small increase in basophilic cells. Those given II had some castration cells, and only a moderate redn. of basophilic cells compared with the untreated rats. The effect of III on the pituitary was almost negligible. In uterotropic activity, measured as the ratio of uterus wt. to body wt., I was most effective; III was intermediate; II showed almost no activity.

Secondary hormone effects of gynecological interest of dimetazine Author Pasquinucci, Cesare Organization Univ. Milan Publication Source Annali di Ostetricia e Ginecologia (1962), 84, 851-67 Identifier-CODEN AOGIAI ISSN 0003-4657
Abstract
In a group of 10 women in surgical menopause a colpocytological study showed that dimetazine had no estrogenic or androgenic activity. In cases where a previous estrogenation had taken place, the drug had a slightly antiestrogen activity. In a group of fertile patients with normal ovarian cycle, the treatment had no effect on the cycle characteristics


Biological determination of the secondary hormonal activities of dimethazine Author Lupo, C.; Matscher, R.; Ruggieri, P. De Organization Lab. Ric. Ormonoter. Richter, Milan. Publication Source Bollettino - Societa Italiana di Biologia Sperimentale (1962), 38, 990-4 Identifier-CODEN BSIBAC ISSN 0037-8771
Abstract
Expts. with rats and rabbits showed that dimethazine has, in contrast to its protein-anabolic properties, practically no estrogenic, progestational, and corticoid activity. Similarly, it has no effect on liver glycogen, and no antiinflammatory action on the anaphylactoid edema.

[heavydeadlifts]

good stuff thauncle



thanks for the Dymethazine too

[sammoken]

Originally Posted by J2jud

Here is part of a paragraph from Anabolics 2007. I believe this is where his information comes from... Have you tried sending him the studies you have?

"Note that in studies administering 20mg per day to patients for 45-95 days. dimethazine was shown to induce modest to moderate bilirubinemia (excess bilirubin in the blood, indicative of hapatic stress) in close to 50% of patients. Approximately 25% of the patients noticed substantial increases in serum transaminases. These results suggest this steroid has a significant level of hepatoxicity." - William Llewellyn

He listed his sources as:

446 - Protracted action of protein anabolism in gynecological oncology and its effect on hapatic function.Dambrosio F, Donatelli G, et al. University of Milan (1963)
445 - Biological determination of the secondary hormonal activity of dimethazine. Lupo, C, Matscher R, et al. Bolletino - societa italiana di biologia Sperimentale 38 (1962):990-4

its in 2009 as well. The whole point of using nitrogen bonds (like an azine bond) is to alter the pharmacodynamics of the drug so that delivery time is extended, lessening the impact of the chemical's toxicity. Will doesnt really get into that though...

All steroids have potential sides, so I dunno if anyone can say any steroid is like another steroid but without the sides.

[thauncle]

Originally Posted by heavydeadlifts

good stuff thauncle



thanks for the Dymethazine too

Yea I found quite a few studies but getting access to them is a lil hard.
No prob run the heck out of that stuff

[VaughnTrue]

see I disagree with BL's assesment.


25-50% noticed an increase in liver values...



now when people run methyls, what is the one rule of thumb? "YOUR LIVER VALUES WILL GO UP"...yet less than 50% here did, and of those 50%, none went past normal levels...they experienced modest to moderate increased. Seems about normal to me

[J2jud]

Originally Posted by VaughnTrue

see I disagree with BL's assesment.


25-50% noticed an increase in liver values...



now when people run methyls, what is the one rule of thumb? "YOUR LIVER VALUES WILL GO UP"...yet less than 50% here did, and of those 50%, none went past normal levels...they experienced modest to moderate increased. Seems about normal to me

Send him the info you have. Or give it to me and I'll send it to him or call Catherine and we'll chat. It's been a while since I've talked to her, but it will be nice to hear from her.

[TwinTowers]

Originally Posted by J2jud

Send him the info you have. Or give it to me and I'll send it to him or call Catherine and we'll chat. It's been a while since I've talked to her, but it will be nice to hear from her.

This is why i luv you

[Happy234]

In yeah Bill L knows with anabolics what hes doing and has been doing it a long time.

[Happy234]

heres an article I dont know if it was written by Pa when he worked for ergo.

Forgotten steroid dymethazine turns up in designer supplement

it basically says the sides do exist with dymethazine

[J2jud]

Originally Posted by TwinTowers

This is why i luv you

OH... me rove you tooh!

[thauncle]

here is a few more haven't been able to get to the studies yet though to see how useful they could be.

Synthetic anabolic steroids (dimethazine) in osteoporosis
Authors: A Mastrorilli
Minerva ortopedica. 08/1966; 17(7):399-401.

Biological activity of dimethazine in the protein anabolic sense
Authors: R MATSCHER, C LUPO, P DE RUGGIERI
Bollettino della SocietÃ* italiana di biologia sperimentale. 11/1962; 38:988-90.

Clinical evaluation of the proteo-anabolic activity of dimethazine in patients with genital neoplasms during actinotherapy
Authors: G FONTANA DONATELLI, F DAMBROSIO
Annali di ostetricia e ginecologia. 10/1962; 84:773-83.

Anabolic effect of dimethazine in pediatrics
Authors: G Andreotti
La Clinica pediatrica. 11/1968; 50(10):721-9.

[N4cer]

Originally Posted by VaughnTrue

we have clinical studies documenting the low liver toxicity + shutdown ability with dymethazine. he either is not aware of the publications, or wishes to believe otherwise...for reasons we are currently unaware of

If that doesn't compare it to methasteron, then it's not relevant info to show it to be milder. No offense. But it's not valid.

Heck I personally want to know who thinks they're gonna do effective androgens but have low side effects.

[Grambo]

Originally Posted by N4cer

If that doesn't compare it to methasteron, then it's not relevant info to show it to be milder. No offense. But it's not valid.

Heck I personally want to know who thinks they're gonna do effective androgens but have low side effects.

No real such thing. Androgens have side effect. Period.

[Craig Mack]

Originally Posted by Grambo

No real such thing. Androgens have side effect. Period.

you gotta pay to play!!!!!!!!

If you want a magic pill, it doesn't exist.

Man up or GTFO.

[Craig Mack]

By the way, Lebron...............3-1. What now son??? GTFO

[Lebron]

Originally Posted by Craig Mack

By the way, Lebron...............3-1. What now son??? GTFO

LOL considering I hate pro basketball I'll let you get away with that post

[Voodoo]

LOL I was waiting for someone to look it up in Anabolics.

Ok so heres what I've seen. Its basically superdrol (gasp) but everyone that runs it reports different sides than SD and everyone whos run bloodwork shows far less elevated liver values than people on SD @ 20-30mgs for 4 weeks.

I know, Ive been saying its superdrol since day 1, buuuut then when I stated seeing bloodwork and user reports I changed my tune quickly. Its still a DHT base, but keep in mind any minor modification of a chemical compound DRASTICALLY changes its effects. For instance, phera and DMT are nowhere near each other in terms of sides, but have literally only one difference:
2-ene versus 3-ene.

Honestly, thats how I've always thought of Dymethazine, basically the DMT to Phera. Its a little different and yet almost totally the same.

[heavydeadlifts]

Originally Posted by Voodoo

LOL I was waiting for someone to look it up in Anabolics.

Ok so heres what I've seen. Its basically superdrol (gasp) but everyone that runs it reports different sides than SD and everyone whos run bloodwork shows far less elevated liver values than people on SD @ 20-30mgs for 4 weeks.

I know, Ive been saying its superdrol since day 1, buuuut then when I stated seeing bloodwork and user reports I changed my tune quickly. Its still a DHT base, but keep in mind any minor modification of a chemical compound DRASTICALLY changes its effects. For instance, phera and DMT are nowhere near each other in terms of sides, but have literally only one difference:
2-ene versus 3-ene.

Honestly, thats how I've always thought of Dymethazine, basically the DMT to Phera. Its a little different and yet almost totally the same.

So what would you recommend the dosages for a 6 week Dymethazine cycle for an experienced PH/DS user? (possibly stacking it with Trenadrol)

[Voodoo]

Originally Posted by heavydeadlifts

So what would you recommend the dosages for a 6 week Dymethazine cycle for an experienced PH/DS user? (possibly stacking it with Trenadrol)

In my own personal opinion (which is a little skewed cause Im abnormally tall) Trenadrol is worthless in doses less than 90mgs. Dymethazine is showing solid results at 30mgs, run a 90/30. If you're feeling adventurous, you can always go higher...