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Well this is why I can't build muscle for shit

build muscle old test

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#51 Coachese

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 11:00 AM

wat? the question is would you rather see a 17 year old that is dedicated to training and nutrition and has done his research take steroids as opposed to a 25 year old that lifts casually, doesn't eat right, just wants quick gains and has no idea what he's doing. it's not specific about anybody on here, just a general question. your argument has no support.


I'm not arguing - you are. I'm not 17 nor am I 25. I'll tell you what, if my nephew was 17 and he was 'dedicated to training and nutrition' and wanted to cycle, I'd kick his fucking ass. 99% of 17 year olds don't NEED added test - they are full to the brim with it already.

That is my opinion

Edited by Coachese, 29 August 2009 - 12:33 PM.

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#52 bvd051000

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 11:22 AM

This is what I believe to be true. Even before I had ran my cycle, I was lifting for 2 years and had a very strict diet regime. Not do be a dick to anyone here, but I've looked over the logs at how people eat and they eat like shit. I always have 5-6 meals a day, 50g protein per meal, etc. I always track what I eat, never cheat. I average 1 1/2 to 2lbs of chicken per day.


Like I said again. Not to be a dick to anyone, I'm not the type of person who's full of myself if you look over my post history. But I'm more serious about training and nutrition than 99% of people on this site. I am not validating my past - just stating facts.

Like I said before - even after I had trained for 2 years, I had a very small build compared to every guy I've seen. I've worked out with a lot of friends who don't even track anything on their diet - and they saw gains much faster than I had.

I use to be very fat - I have lost around 70lbs total.

I was never very strong in anything.
My squat was terrible, bench even worse. The best I've done on flat bench is like 245, at a 200lb bodyweight. I've never half-assed my training and diet like I see many guys who smoke me do. I never understood why the fuck everyone could pass me up without all the work I put in.


If you stick to a crappy lifting routine and diet 99% of the time, your results are still shitty. I've always been more focused on strength so my diet isn't strict. I have no problems drinking two glasses of whole milk with protein powder and 2 pop tarts for breakfast. I'd rather eat like shit and eat enough to get strong than try to eat 4000 calories of steamed broccoli and chicken breast and not eat enough to get to my goals.

I don't chase size and strength at the same time. I chase strength and size comes as a bonus.

It seems because your plan has failed that you have to blame your genetics. I'm not saying what the problem is or what it isn't. I'm just saying stop making excuses. When I first started benching I was benching less than some girls in my gym (95 pounds).

Cowboy up and good luck.

#53 Grambo

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 11:30 AM

There is no way to know if you were low before, but honestly you are not describing real effects of low test and high estrogen in younger patients. Just not that you couldn't build some muscle or your families fat.

#54 bvd051000

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 11:34 AM

There is no way to know if you were low before, but honestly you are not describing real effects of low test and high estrogen in younger patients. Just not that you couldn't build some muscle or your families fat.


Exactly. I don't see how he's ruling anything out.

#55 Cheezboyz

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 11:52 AM

I'm 99% positive I was under already guys. I have always been overweight my whole life...

But I'm more serious about training and nutrition than 99% of people on this site...

Like I said before - even after I had trained for 2 years, I had a very small build compared to every guy I've seen. I've worked out with a lot of friends who don't even track anything on their diet - and they saw gains much faster than I had.

I use to be very fat - I have lost around 70lbs total.

I was never very strong in anything. My squat was terrible, bench even worse. The best I've done on flat bench is like 245, at a 200lb bodyweight. I've never half-assed my training and diet like I see many guys who smoke me do. I never understood why the fuck everyone could pass me up without all the work I put in.


Doesn't seem like you're that bad off to me; you've got a 245lb bench and have lost 70 lbs in 2.5 years, that's great! Some people are SLOW GAINERS!! I am too, it's rough, but just stick to your guns! Oh yeah, and you really can't say that you're more serious than 99% of the people on this site...many guys have been training longer than you've been alive!

There is no advice we can you now, Obnoxious. Just listen to your doctor, make sure he is aware of all the chemicals you've put into your body. Good luck to you bro.

Edited by Cheezboyz, 29 August 2009 - 12:07 PM.

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#56 TRex

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 01:15 PM

This is what I believe to be true. Even before I had ran my cycle, I was lifting for 2 years and had a very strict diet regime. Not do be a dick to anyone here, but I've looked over the logs at how people eat and they eat like shit. I always have 5-6 meals a day, 50g protein per meal, etc. I always track what I eat, never cheat. I average 1 1/2 to 2lbs of chicken per day.


but you were like 14 or 15? A lot of people dont make good gainz at that age. I lifted like a mad man when i was 14 and 15 but didnt put on much weight at all...

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#57 Obnoxious123

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 01:30 PM

If you stick to a crappy lifting routine and diet 99% of the time, your results are still shitty. I've always been more focused on strength so my diet isn't strict. I have no problems drinking two glasses of whole milk with protein powder and 2 pop tarts for breakfast. I'd rather eat like shit and eat enough to get strong than try to eat 4000 calories of steamed broccoli and chicken breast and not eat enough to get to my goals.

I don't chase size and strength at the same time. I chase strength and size comes as a bonus.

It seems because your plan has failed that you have to blame your genetics. I'm not saying what the problem is or what it isn't. I'm just saying stop making excuses. When I first started benching I was benching less than some girls in my gym (95 pounds).

Cowboy up and good luck.


I don't have a crappy routine or diet. I know an amateur bodybuilder and even train with him from time to time. I know what I'm doing.

You don't think I've tried to bulk before? I was taking in 3k calories from oats, chicken, salmon, brown rice, protein powder, and flank steak. I was around 190lbs then. I have pictures of myself too. I was retaining water like it was my job and getting my love handles back. Eating enough is not my problem. I've had a carb up day a few times where I would down an entire box of cereal (2000 calories) and still be fucking hungry as a mother fucker. I've also had my very few times that I've ate until I felt sick to my stomach. I can very easily put down probably 10,000 calories in a day man.

There is no way to know if you were low before, but honestly you are not describing real effects of low test and high estrogen in younger patients. Just not that you couldn't build some muscle or your families fat.


I'm not going to describe my personal problems on this forum.

Doesn't seem like you're that bad off to me; you've got a 245lb bench and have lost 70 lbs in 2.5 years, that's great! Some people are SLOW GAINERS!! I am too, it's rough, but just stick to your guns! Oh yeah, and you really can't say that you're more serious than 99% of the people on this site...many guys have been training longer than you've been alive!

There is no advice we can you now, Obnoxious. Just listen to your doctor, make sure he is aware of all the chemicals you've put into your body. Good luck to you bro.


My doctor isn't interested in my testosterone levels. He's worried about my Creatinine levels. I told him that I take Creatine, and I knew my Creatinine levels were going to be high. He just wants me to come in non-fasted and take another test for it. He even told me that the best way to take your test levels is fasted first thing in the morning, which is what I did. If he wanted to retest me for my test levels, I would have to do the same thing.

but you were like 14 or 15? A lot of people dont make good gainz at that age. I lifted like a mad man when i was 14 and 15 but didnt put on much weight at all...


I started at 15. When I turned 17 I was still natural. I barely even looked like I stepped foot into a gym for over a month, and probably not following a bb'ers diet.

#58 2LEGIT2QUIT

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 02:23 PM

I agree that your test levels were probably low before the cycle. However, I also believe there is a strong chance the PH's may have damaged your test levels further. That's why they recommend you see a doctor and speak with him before taking ANYTHING, because this stuff is for healthy males. If you have a hormonal imbalance than your not a healthy male, you are a male with a hormone imbalance and putting exogenous hormones into the body won't help the problem it will only worsen it, which in this case I think it did.

What you need to do from here is not take anymore PH. You should go see an endocrinologist and speak with him about you problem. Make sure to be honest with them and let them know you have taken legal steroids but that you also believe you had an imbalance before eating the roids.

keep liftin hard and eatin the right stuff, sorry to hear about your situation but don't let it get you down remember Lance Armstrong won the Tour De France with one nut.

Edit: About the stupid side argument, funny but comeon This guy posted this thread for help/advice not to read a pointless argument. People don't want to read a huge thread some times, it keeps people who may have good advice from posting.

Edited by 2LEGIT2QUIT, 29 August 2009 - 02:27 PM.

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#59 Taurus

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 05:09 PM

I don't have a crappy routine or diet. I know an amateur bodybuilder and even train with him from time to time. I know what I'm doing.

You don't think I've tried to bulk before? I was taking in 3k calories from oats, chicken, salmon, brown rice, protein powder, and flank steak. I was around 190lbs then. I have pictures of myself too. I was retaining water like it was my job and getting my love handles back. Eating enough is not my problem. I've had a carb up day a few times where I would down an entire box of cereal (2000 calories) and still be fucking hungry as a mother fucker. I've also had my very few times that I've ate until I felt sick to my stomach. I can very easily put down probably 10,000 calories in a day man.

3k calories at 190 is hardly a bulk diet, it's barely even maintenance. I can't get much from your training comments, but your diet is clearly inadequate.

test does not build muscle directly. it's merely just a piece of a much larger puzzle. control the variables you can control in an effort to affect those that you cannot.
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#60 Grambo

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 05:15 PM

3k calories at 190 is hardly a bulk diet, it's barely even maintenance. I can't get much from your training comments, but your diet is clearly inadequate.

test does not build muscle directly. it's merely just a piece of a much larger puzzle. control the variables you can control in an effort to affect those that you cannot.


This is actually very true.

Stop acting like you are an expert on everything.
Go see an endocrinologist, tell him EVERYTHING you have taken even if you have to explain and show things.
Don't take TRT into your own hands.....whatever that meant (sorry if that was not you saying this statement)
End of discussion.
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#61 user123456

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 07:52 PM

This is actually very true.

Stop acting like you are an expert on everything.
Go see an endocrinologist, tell him EVERYTHING you have taken even if you have to explain and show things.
Don't take TRT into your own hands.....whatever that meant (sorry if that was not you saying this statement)
End of discussion.


This. Go see a endo, not a GP.

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#62 rozzr

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 08:36 PM

id be very surprised if anyone has ever done permanent damage from a run of a PH at the advised dosage, even as young as 16/17.

i am sure there are short term issues for most people, however 9 months after running a compound(s) at sensible and advised dosages the vast majority of people would return to around baseline values. as such i find it extremely likely that you had pre-existing issues with testosterone levels and unlikely that this is due to using the phs.

I wonder if you have noted many symptoms throughout your life of lower testosterone?
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#63 Grambo

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 09:58 PM

id be very surprised if anyone has ever done permanent damage from a run of a PH at the advised dosage, even as young as 16/17.

i am sure there are short term issues for most people, however 9 months after running a compound(s) at sensible and advised dosages the vast majority of people would return to around baseline values. as such i find it extremely likely that you had pre-existing issues with testosterone levels and unlikely that this is due to using the phs.

I wonder if you have noted many symptoms throughout your life of lower testosterone?



Well....... you would be wrong. :fukinskanks:
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#64 Obnoxious123

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 04:06 AM

3k calories at 190 is hardly a bulk diet, it's barely even maintenance. I can't get much from your training comments, but your diet is clearly inadequate.

test does not build muscle directly. it's merely just a piece of a much larger puzzle. control the variables you can control in an effort to affect those that you cannot.


I know that. But why did I get all bloaty and fat? It just doesn't make sense.

This is actually very true.

Stop acting like you are an expert on everything.
Go see an endocrinologist, tell him EVERYTHING you have taken even if you have to explain and show things.
Don't take TRT into your own hands.....whatever that meant (sorry if that was not you saying this statement)
End of discussion.


I never said I was an expert on anything.

This. Go see a endo, not a GP.


My dad is actually going to talk to his client who is an endo. He's going to see what he suggests etc.

#65 rozzr

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 06:21 AM

Well....... you would be wrong. :fukinskanks:


certainly could be, i am by no means an expert - or anywhere near one

but still, im asking seriously what can you base that on? is there any research into it to prove otherwise, or even just anything you can recall from personal experience?

i just think people underestimate just how tough our bodies are and how effectively they can recover, especially from a PH at an advised dosage most people think you will be ruined for life if you dont run PCT but i believe you would recover fine generally, just would take longer to do than if you were being assissted by nolva or something.
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#66 BigTimeWannabe

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 06:31 AM

I would be more concerned about having the rubella virus if i was you lol.

#67 Meltdown

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 06:40 AM

but you were like 14 or 15? A lot of people dont make good gainz at that age. I lifted like a mad man when i was 14 and 15 but didnt put on much weight at all...


I started lifting when I was 14 and made great gains, even with a crap diet of pizzas and ice cream.

#68 2LEGIT2QUIT

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 09:14 AM

certainly could be, i am by no means an expert - or anywhere near one

but still, im asking seriously what can you base that on? is there any research into it to prove otherwise, or even just anything you can recall from personal experience?

i just think people underestimate just how tough our bodies are and how effectively they can recover, especially from a PH at an advised dosage most people think you will be ruined for life if you dont run PCT but i believe you would recover fine generally, just would take longer to do than if you were being assissted by nolva or something.


What do you base your theory on? I don't think anybody underestimates anything I have seen multiple people cause permanent damage from steroids. I think you are trying to tell yourself something here. Also since the OP is likely to have already have had problems regarding hormone levels, would you not agree that steroids are intended for healthy males above the age of 21 ONLY not 17 year olds with a hormone imbalance? Still if a 17 year old took it, we are still talking about healthy males when it comes to recovery. I think people try to look at PH as not a big deal but the truth is they cause serious problems if your someone who shouldn't be using it and those people are anyone with a medical condition (including hormonal imbalance) or those who are under 21.


When I was 17 I was strong but wasn't anything like I am today, I naturally got alot stronger just by allowing my body to NATURALLY develop. I took roids at an earlier age, which was 20. At 20 I took Test E, I wasn't 21 but I also sure as hell wasn't 17 years old and believe me at that age there is a change in your physical appearance every year, your going through you final stages of puberty.

#69 Right Hook

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 09:22 AM

Did you hit puberty at a reasonably normal age?

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#70 Right Hook

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 09:33 AM

This is somewhat relevant to you btw....

POTENTIAL EFFECTS ON THE REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM IN MEN AND WOMEN

Infertility and testicular atrophy have long been cited as potential adverse side effects
of anabolic steroid use in men. Although all anabolic-androgenic steroids will suppress
the hypothalamic-pituitary axis to some extent, the resulting infertility is generally
reversible (82), even in those who ingest high doses of steroids for long periods of time
(149,150). In addition, during an 8-10-yr follow-up of adolescent boys treated for
excessively tall stature with high doses of testosterone (500 mg/2 wk for up to 3 yr),
there was no evidence of impaired fertility (151,152)
. For those steroid users who find
testicular atrophy psychologically disturbing, the concurrent use of hCG can maintain both
testicular size and normal spermatogenesis during high-dose testosterone treatment (153).
Benign prostatic hypertrophy and prostate cancer are also cited as side effects of
anabolic steroid use, but this has been reported only once in otherwise healthy steroid
users (75). In addition, clinical studies employing supraphysiologic doses of anabolicandrogenic
steroids have not detected adverse effects on the prostate (9,20,82,111). It is
also important to note that not all anabolic steroids are metabolized to potent androgens;
thus, the effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids on the prostate likely depend on the
chemical structure (19,154) and androgenicity of the drugs.
The effect of anabolic-androgenic steroid use on fertility in women is unknown. High
doses of androgens decrease circulating follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and sexhormone-
binding globulin (SHBG) concentrations in eugonadal women (155), whereas
no changes are observed in mean nadir and LH pulse amplitude and in circulating conChapter
24 / Performance-Enhancing Drugs 451
centrations of estradiol, estrone, and adrenal steroids (156,157). Menstruation is either
diminished or absent in steroid users (158), but ovulation may occur (159). In addition,
high circulating concentrations of testosterone cause marked changes in genital tract
histology (159), an upregulation of ovarian androgen receptor expression (160), and
pathological criteria consistent for the diagnosis of polycystic ovaries (157). What
effects these changes may have on fertility following steroid cessation is unknown, but
former steroid users who tested positive at competitions have conceived apparently normal
healthy children. Because ovulation may occur during a steroid cycle, it is imperative
that the female user minimize the risk of pregnancy during this period with
nonhormonal contraception methods.


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#71 rozzr

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 10:45 AM

What do you base your theory on? I don't think anybody underestimates anything I have seen multiple people cause permanent damage from steroids.


I am basing my theory on nothing more than my own thoughts and reading, hence why i am saying happily please correct me and criticize openly what i am saying, just wanting to get a clearer idea on thigns.

What i am saying is just that i take the body to be a resilliant creation to the point that running say epistane at 30mg a day for a month would not cause any life long problems even if you did no PCT or anything, in the vast majority of people, probably even those who are say 17 or 18. Are you saying this is not the case?

The people who you saw steroids cause permanent damage for, what were they using - were they heavy users? What long term issues did they suffer from?

I am just really interested to know, not trying to argue in case anyone thinks i am as i dont know enough to be able to argue!!

Edited by rozzr, 30 August 2009 - 10:48 AM.

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#72 Grambo

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 10:58 AM

I'm on my iPhone..... but the body is resilent. It also HATES getting interupted during maturation and this is where there are problems. It is a known fact that steroid use in younger kids causes adverse side effects.

#73 _NYG_

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 11:03 AM

I'm on my iPhone..... but the body is resilent. It also HATES getting interupted during maturation and this is where there are problems. It is a known fact that steroid use in younger kids causes adverse side effects.


everybody matures differently bro. you could be 22 and a late bloomer and some guy could be 16 and fully grown.

#74 Grambo

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 11:08 AM

There is no way of knowing, outward appearance means nothing about the inside. They have done studies and know what the average maturation rate is, I would estimate 16-17 being completely done is few and far between.

I don't understand you guys argueing this.....

#75 _NYG_

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Posted 30 August 2009 - 11:10 AM

"they" do a lot of things, don't they? :yodawg:





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