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#26 truthornothin

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:36 PM

Couldn't you get basically the same pump form UR spray alone?

Here is some of the science, I've had the pleasure of using both and there is definitely more of a pump and vascularity enhancement from the Pump Spray


Here is an abstract concerning adenosine and vasodilation

Acta Physiol Scand. 2001 Feb;171(2):177-85.
Role of adenosine in exercise-induced human skeletal muscle vasodilatation.
Rådegran G, Calbet JA.
Source
Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre, Rigshospitalet and University of Copenhagen, Denmark.
Abstract
The role of adenosine in exercise-induced human skeletal muscle vasodilatation remains unknown. We therefore evaluated the effect of theophylline-induced adenosine receptor blockade in six subjects and the vasodilator potency of adenosine infused in the femoral artery of seven subjects. During one-legged, knee-extensor exercise at approximately 48% of peak power output, intravenous (i.v.) theophylline decreased (P < 0.003) femoral artery blood flow (FaBF) by approximately 20%, i.e. from 3.6 +/- 0.5 to 2.9 +/- 0.5 L min(-1), and leg vascular conductance (VC) from 33.4 +/- 9.1 to 27.7 +/- 8.5 mL min-1 mmHg-1, whereas heart rate (HR), mean arterial pressure (MAP), leg oxygen uptake and lactate release remained unaltered (P = n.s.). Bolus injections of adenosine (2.5 mg) at rest rapidly increased (P < 0.05) FaBF from 0.3 +/- 0.03 L min(-1) to a 15-fold peak elevation (P < 0.05) at 4.1 +/- 0.5 L min(-1). Continuous infusion of adenosine at rest and during one-legged exercise at approximately 62% of peak power output increased (P < 0.05) FaBF dose-dependently to level off (P = ns) at 8.3 +/- 1.0 and 8.2 +/- 1.4 L min(-1), respectively. One-legged exercise alone increased (P < 0.05) FaBF to 4.7 +/- 1.7 L min(-1). Leg oxygen uptake was unaltered (P = n.s.) with adenosine infusion during both rest and exercise. The present findings demonstrate that endogenous adenosine controls at least approximately 20% of the hyperaemic response to submaximal exercise in skeletal muscle of humans. The results also clearly show that arterial infusion of exogenous adenosine has the potential to evoke a vasodilator response that mimics the increase in blood flow observed in response to exercise.
PMID: 11350278 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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#27 truthornothin

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 03:39 PM

Here is another article suggesting that no only does adenosine perform as a vasodilator but it may in fact prompt new vascular growth

See 1 citation found by title matching your search:

Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol. 2005 Aug;289(2):R283-R296.
Growth regulation of the vascular system: an emerging role for adenosine.
Adair TH.
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Dept. of Physiology and Biophysics, University of Mississippi Medical Center, 2500 N. State Street, Jackson, MS 39216-4505, USA. tadair@physiology.umsmed.edu
Abstract
The importance of metabolic factors in the regulation of angiogenesis is well understood. An increase in metabolic activity leads to a decrease in tissue oxygenation causing tissues to become hypoxic. The hypoxia initiates a variety of signals that stimulate angiogenesis, and the increase in vascularity that follows promotes oxygen delivery to the tissues. When the tissues receive adequate amounts of oxygen, the intermediate effectors return to normal levels, and angiogenesis ceases. An emerging concept is that adenosine released from hypoxic tissues has an important role in driving the angiogenesis. The following feedback control hypothesis is proposed: AMP is dephosphorylated by ecto-5'-nucleotidase, producing adenosine under hypoxic conditions in the extracellular space adjacent to a parenchymal cell (e.g., cardiomyocyte, skeletal muscle fiber, hepatocyte, etc.). Extracellular adenosine activates A(2) receptors, which stimulates the release of vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) from the parenchymal cell. VEGF binds to its receptor (VEGF receptor 2) on endothelial cells, stimulating their proliferation and migration. Adenosine can also stimulate endothelial cell proliferation independently of VEGF, which probably involves modulation of other proangiogenic and antiangiogenic growth factors and perhaps an intracellular mechanism. In addition, hemodynamic factors associated with adenosine-induced vasodilation may have a role in the development and remodeling of the vasculature. Once a new capillary network has been established, and the diffusion/perfusion capabilities of the vasculature are sufficient to supply the parenchymal cells with adequate amounts of oxygen, adenosine and VEGF as well as other proangiogenic and antiangiogenic growth factors return to near-normal levels, thus closing the negative feedback loop. The available data indicate that adenosine might be an essential mediator for up to 50-70% of the hypoxia-induced angiogenesis in some situations; however, additional studies in intact animals will be required to fully understand the quantitative importance of adenosine.


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#28 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:22 PM

and this one


Am J Physiol Heart Circ Physiol. 2010 Sep;299(3):H857-62. Epub 2010 Jun 11.
Contraction-induced secretion of VEGF from skeletal muscle cells is mediated by adenosine.
Høier B, Olsen K, Nyberg M, Bangsbo J, Hellsten Y.
Source
Copenhagen Muscle Research Center, Department of Exercise and Sport Sciences, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen, Denmark.
Abstract
The role of adenosine and contraction for secretion of vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) in skeletal muscle was investigated in human subjects and rat primary skeletal muscle cells. Microdialysis probes were inserted in the thigh muscle of seven male subjects, and dialysate was collected at rest, during infusion of adenosine, and during knee extensor exercise. The dialysate was analyzed for content of VEGF protein and adenosine. The mechanism of VEGF secretion from muscle cells in culture was examined in resting and electrostimulated cells and in response to the adenosine analog NECA and the adenosine A(2A) receptor specific analog CGS-21680. Adenosine receptors A(1), A(2A), and A(2B) were blocked with DPCPX, ZM-241385, and enprofylline, respectively. cAMP-dependent protein kinase A (PKA) and mitogen-activated protein kinase (MAPK) were inhibited by H-89 and PD-98509, respectively. The human experiment showed that adenosine infusion enhanced (P < 0.05) the interstitial concentration of VEGF protein approximately fourfold above baseline. Exercise increased (P < 0.05) the interstitial VEGF concentration approximately sixfold above rest in parallel with an approximately threefold increase in adenosine concentration. In accordance, in cultured muscle cells, NECA and contraction caused secretion of VEGF (P < 0.05). The contraction-induced secretion of VEGF was abolished by the A(2B) antagonist enprofylline and by inhibition of PKA or MAPK. The results demonstrate that adenosine causes secretion of VEGF from human skeletal muscle cells and that the contraction-induced secretion of VEGF protein is partially mediated via adenosine acting on A(2B) adenosine receptors. Moreover, the contraction-induced secretion of VEGF protein from muscle is dependent on both PKA and MAPK activation, but only the MAPK pathway appears to be adenosine dependent, revealing involvement of additional pathways in VEGF secretion.

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#29 ezjax

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:27 PM

so why hasnt anyone tried to market this... I know you guys are smart... but its like the 6-test... If this shit is so dope then why hasnt anyone thought of it??? and yo pump spray IS dope!

#30 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:42 PM

so why hasnt anyone tried to market this... I know you guys are smart... but its like the 6-test... If this shit is so dope then why hasnt anyone thought of it??? and yo pump spray IS dope!


adenosine has been marketed before - as ATP (adenosine triphosphate). However the adenosine it provides is quickly destroyed by adenosine deaminase. You need to protect the adenosine by esterifying the 5 OH on the ribose ring

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#31 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:43 PM

so why hasnt anyone tried to market this... I know you guys are smart... but its like the 6-test... If this shit is so dope then why hasnt anyone thought of it??? and yo pump spray IS dope!


plus no one figured out the benefits of adenosine. the marketers of PEAK ATP failed

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#32 keyser

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:16 PM

Think someone asked here before and no answer. Would Pump Spray help with erections if applied to the one eyed Mr.Johnson?

#33 truthornothin

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:34 PM

Think someone asked here before and no answer. Would Pump Spray help with erections if applied to the one eyed Mr.Johnson?

Only one way to find out, skeletal muscle and the smooth muscle there are different but who knows?

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#34 DevastatingDave

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:37 PM

Would this product have noticeable effects for someone already on gear?

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#35 mr.cooper69

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 10:04 PM

Two Qs:

1. Does this have as much total ursolic acid as ur spray, or should we stick to the latter if we want strictly ursolic acid?

2. Can you elaborate on the extent of vasculogenesis? I'm a little concerned about this effect from a health perspective.

#36 truthornothin

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 06:31 AM

Two Qs:

1. Does this have as much total ursolic acid as ur spray, or should we stick to the latter if we want strictly ursolic acid?

2. Can you elaborate on the extent of vasculogenesis? I'm a little concerned about this effect from a health perspective.

I'll leave the former to PA as to the latter the study references increased capillary formation. This happens naturally anyway when a muscle has an extended need for more oxygen and nutrients. It is vital for muscle growth, no capillary formation = no potential for growth.

I have been able to witness the body's amazing ability to compensate by forming new and larger vessels myself. When I suffered a distal rupture of my left bicep tendon, the surgery mowed through some of the major veins I had in that area, Within a year of training I had a whole new group of smaller yet more prolific veins that appeared directly where the severed vessels used to be. Visual evidence of the body enhancing its vascular system to handle a new demands. So not being as Doctor I cannot say for fact but from my personal standpoint it surely seems a good thing. Increased oxygen and nutrient exchange does not seem to have a down side

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#37 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:05 AM

Would this product have noticeable effects for someone already on gear?


i dont see why not

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#38 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:07 AM

Two Qs:

1. Does this have as much total ursolic acid as ur spray, or should we stick to the latter if we want strictly ursolic acid?

2. Can you elaborate on the extent of vasculogenesis? I'm a little concerned about this effect from a health perspective.


pump spray has about 25 percent less ursolic than UR spray, to make room for the TAA

Vasculogenesis is not a word, and the discussion of neovascularization as it pertains to TAA is in muscle

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#39 Right Hook

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:42 AM

plus no one figured out the benefits of adenosine. the marketers of PEAK ATP failed


Why do you think they failed? They are PHd's behind Peak ATP, and probably some marketers, but not just marketers.
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#40 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:03 AM

Why do you think they failed? They are PHd's behind Peak ATP, and probably some marketers, but not just marketers.


they failed because they neglected to mention a plethora of benefits of adenosine (primarily its effects on muscular blood flow and glucose uptake). Or if they did, they did not do it in a way that got through. and what do phd's have to do with marketing? in fact phd's maybe one reason why they didnt get the marketing right

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#41 drillbit369

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:07 AM

This stuff sounds like its going to be an awesome tool in the box when it's time to get back on stage next year.
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#42 Right Hook

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:26 AM

they failed because they neglected to mention a plethora of benefits of adenosine (primarily its effects on muscular blood flow and glucose uptake). Or if they did, they did not do it in a way that got through. and what do phd's have to do with marketing? in fact phd's maybe one reason why they didnt get the marketing right


I didn't know you were such a marketing expert. Sorry.

They touted the muscle blood flow benefits but primarily stuck to research they funded. Lots of performance products contained or still contain peak ATP.

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#43 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:26 AM

I didn't know you were such a marketing expert. Sorry.
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I didnt know you were such a comedian

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#44 delariva

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:31 AM

This is taking me down memory lane!

I helped (a little) to design a product back in 2000/2001 in which ATP was the chief ingredient. While the company I worked with didn't have the funding to do muscle biopsy studies, we did get a boatload of subjective reports and tweaked everything until we had something pretty awesome. While not highly scientific, for that time I think it was some fairly innovative work towards getting more ATP into the bloodstream and hopefully into the muscles. Unfortunately non-analog ATP (not the 5' mostly around these days) isn't too stable, is horribly expensive and not ideal for a variety of other reasons. The PhD's that came up with Peak ATP were really excited about their findings and nowadays have a lot of research to back up their findings. I felt like we had a better product all things considered and my personal experience with PEAK ATP has not been particularly exciting by comparison.

EDIT: all that said, I'm VERY psyched about trying Pump Spray PA!

Edited by delariva, 09 November 2012 - 10:37 AM.

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#45 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 10:47 AM

This is taking me down memory lane!

I helped (a little) to design a product back in 2000/2001 in which ATP was the chief ingredient. While the company I worked with didn't have the funding to do muscle biopsy studies, we did get a boatload of subjective reports and tweaked everything until we had something pretty awesome. While not highly scientific, for that time I think it was some fairly innovative work towards getting more ATP into the bloodstream and hopefully into the muscles.!


Rapaport, the scientists behind peak ATP, admits freely that it is not absorbed as ATP. It is absorbed as free adenosine and free phosphate. So you come down to the issue of adenosine's half life which is less than ten seconds. Rapaport never resolved that problem. esterification does

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#46 delariva

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:22 AM

Rapaport, the scientists behind peak ATP, admits freely that it is not absorbed as ATP. It is absorbed as free adenosine and free phosphate. So you come down to the issue of adenosine's half life which is less than ten seconds. Rapaport never resolved that problem. esterification does


Makes perfect sense to me. Such was my experience with sublingual ATP tabs like the ones the cyclists use....I felt something but very brief and it always made me wonder if it was psychosomatic because it was gone very quickly. Sounds like from reports that the esterified version has solved that problem!

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#47 Amax47

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:30 AM

Adenosine is an inhibitory neurotransmitter. Any chance the TAA will reach other organs besides skeletal muscle (i.e. heart, lungs, brain)? Any noticeable adverse effects?

I'm a caffeine addict and a big fan of blocking adenosine in my CNS. Also not trying to get AV block if i can help it...

#48 truthornothin

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:40 AM

Adenosine is an inhibitory neurotransmitter. Any chance the TAA will reach other organs besides skeletal muscle (i.e. heart, lungs, brain)? Any noticeable adverse effects?

I'm a caffeine addict and a big fan of blocking adenosine in my CNS. Also not trying to get AV block if i can help it...

There is probably no bigger caffeine addict on the board than myself. I consume upwards of 20 cups of java a day, never mind my Clearshot, and other pre workout caffeine sources. I haven't noticed anything different in respect to my caffeine boost. And I've been using it roughly a month I think you'll be ok

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#49 jerryiii

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:45 AM

Posted this in the other thread, but looks like this is the active one:

Are the glucose uptake characteristic of adenosine selective to muscle cells?

#50 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:47 AM

Adenosine is an inhibitory neurotransmitter. Any chance the TAA will reach other organs besides skeletal muscle (i.e. heart, lungs, brain)? Any noticeable adverse effects?

I'm a caffeine addict and a big fan of blocking adenosine in my CNS. Also not trying to get AV block if i can help it...


It certainly can reach other organs. i have taken large amounts of TAA though, and not had any adverse effects. The only contraindication i can think of is if someone suffers from gout, since it can metabolize to uric acid

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