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#51 truthornothin

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 10:07 AM

Took 3 capfulls last night before leg day with my usual pre workout supplements. I will reserve my first impressions until i get another day under my belt and have a friend try it but i will say this. If this product produces the same effects everytime i use it.....wow....just wow.

I got mine yesterday, but am almost done with taking a week off training. I am training legs Sunday, I will test it then. I hope I have the same results you did. Wow, is good Wow Wow Wow...that's really good

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#52 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 12:11 PM

How does this compare to taking capric or caprylic acid (or other MCTs)? Also, can you run into issues with keto-acidosis if you take too much?


u will get around twice the elevation as an equivalent amount of mcts

this is been demonstrated in humans

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#53 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 12:14 PM

80$ plus shipping.

how long will this last at 2-3 x's a day?

how does this compare to something like 75 mgs t3 for losing fat?

how significantly does this help endurance? I am boxing in the ring and get super winded where I almost pass out from being dizzy, when i go at it hard, and hard endurance training for boxing? does this supplement make the dramatic of a difference?

Pat can you give an scientific opinion in how much this can help my endurance?



i dont know what it will do for losing fat

its not meant to use every day it is too expensive for that

i dont know how it helps endurance. its a new product. only one human has done work on the product but he has demonstrated that it had significant effects on his oxygen consumption at a given work load

please, i dont have all the answers.

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#54 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 12:16 PM

High doses is probably a mild euphoric... Low-carb diets, fasting and euphoria: Is ther... [Med Hypotheses. 2007] - PubMed - NCBI


inb4 DEA raids me based on one erroneous article

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#55 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 12:17 PM

Soooo,... Could it be effective for endurance sports too, not only BB? (for example: Could it be a good idea to take it before a Marathon??)


It is probably much more useful for endurance than bodybuidling

i would expect that consumption before and during a marathon could enhance performance yes. Especially if the individual is adapted to utilizing ketones somewhat

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#56 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 12:22 PM

If this works, it will exceed expectations of what you are saying it will do. On a refeed when your body is refilling glycogen ajx ketones are present and isulin is present why wouldnt the body use the ketones for energy and use the carbs to build muscle instead of storing them as fat like usual? Am i way off woth this?


i dont think ketones are gonna block the storage of excess glucose as fat

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#57 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 12:25 PM

This doesn't turn into ketones it is ketones. I don't think so on the Keto Acidosis, but Patrick will have to weigh in on that but I really don't think it could


ketoacidosis is something that happens when your body has an inadquate supply and/or an inability to respond to insulin. Its a runaway production of ketones by the liver. In normal people insulin serves as a check to prevent that from occuring

it results in ketones that are sky high and you couldnt reach such levels by using this without being sick from all the sodium and postassium

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#58 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 12:27 PM

Whoa.

What are the concentrations of the actives?


50% bhb salts by concentration (weight / volume)

bhb salts consist of 78% bhb, 11% sodium, 11% potassium

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#59 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 12:29 PM

No you cant still eat carbs and go into a natural state of ketosis. You can reap some of the other benefits of ketosis, such as increased endurance and mental clarity, but to actually get into maintainable ketosis you gotta' ditch the carbs. This eases the transition. The lag time between ketone metabolism and glucose metabolism. You can use it prior to an atheletic performance to increase performance whether ketonic or not




but u can eat carbs and take the product and go into a measurable state of ketosis for three hours or so

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#60 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 12:31 PM

Ketoforce is ketones. It will supply you with ketones for energy while your body makes the switch to keto metabloism. It will still take the same time for your body to switch, you will just already have a supply of ketones in your bloodstream when it starts making them on its own. You can also supplement ketones at times of extreme energy need.

Attached File  bhb graph.jpg   7.03KB   39 downloads

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#61 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 12:35 PM

what does your body use as a prefered energy source? Glucose or ketones?


this depends upon a lot of things

a very fit athletic person who eats low carbs will use ketones and fatty acids efficiently

the average joe is gonna have a body which runs on glycolysis and stores fat instead of burning it

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#62 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 12:57 PM

Different organs/ body processes feed off of different fuels. Fatty acids are most often preferred, however they cannot cross your brain barrier (only ketones and glucose can). And while most of the regions in your brain perform more efficiently off of ketone bodies, there are still some regions that require glucose (whether from dietary sources or gluconeogenesis).



actually some smaller and medium chain fatty acids can cross the blood brain barrier and be used as fuel in the brain. lactate can as well


i am not sure which brain regions cannot utilize ketones, i thought all could. people have had blood glucose levels (from insulin administration) in the comatose range but have remained asymptomatic because they were suppplied exogenous ketones

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#63 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 12:58 PM

Muscle are quite partial to glucose also.


muscles can switch over to preferring fatty acids and ketones though. and be way more efficient with fuel utilization as a result

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#64 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 12:59 PM

so you can take this 2x's a week on high endurance days for boxing asnd itll be just as effective for increased endurance as if you took it every day?


i have no idea if it will be "just as efficient" taken that way

but it seems to work acutely

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#65 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 01:01 PM

What happens if its not refrigerated? Loss of actives? Stomach upset?


its pH is high so it should be stable in the bottle even if not refrigerated. but u should do so anyway

when you mix with something acidic though you lower the pH and at that point we cant guarantee what stability is. its not gonna degenerate in a few hours of course

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#66 Hypertrophik

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 01:05 PM

what does your body use as a prefered energy source? Glucose or ketones?


It depends on substrate availability as well as physical activity intensity.

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#67 truthornothin

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 04:14 PM

muscles can switch over to preferring fatty acids and ketones though. and be way more efficient with fuel utilization as a result

I've been in a keto state for the last two months and my workouts have done nothing but improved. Especially when I've supplemented with two tablespoons Coconut oil prior to working out. I just got my KetoForce, I am using it Sunday for leg day and will report my experience
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#68 truthornothin

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 08:55 AM

Used KetoForce for first time this morning prior to my squat workout. I am keto adapted, I didn't eat dinner last night. Just snacked lightly on pork rinds and a little sour cream, not a lot. I took my standard serving of COP and 4 TAA caps plus 30 mils of KetoForce. I felt my mind perk up after 15 minutes and this was pre coffee. My warm up sets on squats seemed totally effortless, into the 20 rep rep range. My working sets were easy, very easy, good sweat but not winded between sets as normal. My heavy sets normally triples turned into 5-6 reps. I resisted the urge to go higher because it seems when I do that injury follows. I had a stellar workout. and this is considering that prior to this my workouts have been amazing with the TAA. The KetoForce kicked it to the next level. This may be a heavy leg day staple. I don't cheat on my keto diet often usually every other week. and I have 3 heavy leg days a month, that makes it affordable for my uses.

I can see where this would be a boon to any endurance athlete. Even on my 20 rep squats my breathing never was labored

COP+TAA+BHB=OMG!!!!

Edited by truthornothin, 11 August 2013 - 09:10 AM.

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#69 3clipseGT

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 09:45 AM

Used KetoForce for first time this morning prior to my squat workout. I am keto adapted, I didn't eat dinner last night. Just snacked lightly on pork rinds and a little sour cream, not a lot. I took my standard serving of COP and 4 TAA caps plus 30 mils of KetoForce. I felt my mind perk up after 15 minutes and this was pre coffee. My warm up sets on squats seemed totally effortless, into the 20 rep rep range. My working sets were easy, very easy, good sweat but not winded between sets as normal. My heavy sets normally triples turned into 5-6 reps. I resisted the urge to go higher because it seems when I do that injury follows. I had a stellar workout. and this is considering that prior to this my workouts have been amazing with the TAA. The KetoForce kicked it to the next level. This may be a heavy leg day staple. I don't cheat on my keto diet often usually every other week. and I have 3 heavy leg days a month, that makes it affordable for my uses.

I can see where this would be a boon to any endurance athlete. Even on my 20 rep squats my breathing never was labored

COP+TAA+BHB=OMG!!!!


Sounds like you had the same experience i did.
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#70 Teknoslam

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 01:39 PM

same here. 2 amazing workouts in a row with TAA (4 caps 45 minutes before) + KETOFORCE (30 minutes before). I had to cut myself out from taking the workouts any further out of fear of injuring myself.

#71 caq9461

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 06:02 PM

3clipseGT and Teknoslam, are you guys keto adapted as well? I'd be interested to know how results differ between glycogen-depleted and glycogen-full states.

#72 3clipseGT

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 09:14 PM

3clipseGT and Teknoslam, are you guys keto adapted as well? I'd be interested to know how results differ between glycogen-depleted and glycogen-full states.


Ive gone between keto adapted and not. I generaly follow a keto diet but have refeeds every 4 days or so.
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#73 truthornothin

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 01:45 PM

Here is a link to Patricks blog showing concentration of BHB in the system after taking KetoForce and the results of a preliminary study show oxygen requirements reduced during exercise..... see here
http://patrickarnold...xed-salts-data/

Here is a the blog post.

On my last blog I promised I would show you some data on my KetoForce product (BHB mixed salts). I have two sets of data – the first showing blood beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHB) responses and the second showing specific changes in physiological parameters during a controlled exercise experiment.
The blood data was done at a university on a set of subjects and the average changes in BHB levels are what this graph shows

bhb graph

These subjects drank a diluted version of the KetoForce product that was essentially equivalent to 36mL of KetoForce.* The product was consumed on an empty stomach and as you can see blood BHB levels rose pretty quickly. Levels appear to stay decently elevated until round the 180 minute (3 hour) mark. 30-60 minutes seems to be the sweet spot for maximum blood levels, so for pre-exercise use one should probably time the ingestion accordingly.
The exercise data I have was done using a 20% solution of the BHB salts which was equivalent to 40 mL of the KetoForce product. The data was done by an independent individual that does such research for a non-profit organization. Out of respect for this fact – and the fact that the data is only preliminary (more research is going to be performed) – I won’t report the full data here. I will give a glimpse into the most interesting thing he found though.
First of all this individual was ketoadapted. Ketoadapated means he had been on a ketogenic diet for a period of time long enough so that he was in full ketosis and had developed a good ability to utilize ketones. He did a bike exercise that was set up so the workload was maintained at a constant level roughly equal to 60% of his VO2 max. During the first stage he did the exercise for twenty minutes without the salts, and during the second stage he consumed the salts 60 minutes prior to the exercise bout.
One of the things that was measured was the amount of oxygen consumed during the exercise bouts. Theoretically, ketones should reduce oxygen consumption because they are known to generate more cellular energy per unit oxygen burned compared to glucose and other energy sources. The data he got with the BHB salts strongly suggested that this theory was at work during the experiment. Below is the difference in oxygen consumption reported as a percentage between a bout without the salts and a bout with the salts.
Last 5 minutes - minus 8.8%
Last 10 minutes – minus 7.7%
Last 15 minutes – minus 6.6%
Apparently there was a substantial decrease in the amount of oxygen he needed to maintain the workload after taking the salts. Very interestingly, this decrease in oxygen demand got more prominent as the session went on as well.
BHB salts are natural products that mimic the nutritional state of ketosis and have been studied in the past for medical applications as well. KetoForce is the first introduction of these salts to supplement and fitness industry so we are very early on in regards to figuring out how best to use them. This preliminary data does give us some clues on how they may be used (timing wise) and what benefits they may offer. We are very hopeful that our collaborations will enable us to generate a lot more research on the product (such as what performance benefits might be seen in non ketoadapted people) in the very near future.

https://www.prototyp...?ProductCode=KF

* The KetoForce label suggests a serving size of 30mL instead of 36mL. Since I don’t expect all my customers to own graduated cylinders many will have to use the cap for measuring, and the cap holds 10mL . For this reason I rounded the serving size off to 30mL.


Edited by truthornothin, 12 August 2013 - 01:50 PM.

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#74 JBerto

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 02:54 PM

It is probably much more useful for endurance than bodybuidling

i would expect that consumption before and during a marathon could enhance performance yes. Especially if the individual is adapted to utilizing ketones somewhat


Great!

I´ll try to buy it and test it in my next long training (around 2.5h of trail running). Do you think adding COP+BA+CM could be a good idea or you see any "bad interference" of KF with those compounds in terms of endurance??

#75 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 03:00 PM

my concerns about combining many supplements like that is the response your stomach is going to have. if you can handle a stack like that without shitting yourself or having any discomfort inside then i see no problems

i dont think CM really has any acute benefits on exercise though, so why not leave that for when you eat your meals or something

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