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#1 kris90

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:54 AM

Just wanted to give some tips in case people were wondering. This is purely from my own experience, and I know I am not a big dude by any means.

I recently switched my training from one extreme to the other. I started doing Stronglifts 5x5 which is more of a strength-based training routine that stimulates the CNS to recruit more motor units to allow strength gains to be made. Well it worked very well for getting stronger. I followed a low carb diet and ate mostly fatty meats, veggies, nuts/seeds, and cooked with oils/butters with heavy carb refeeds every 1-2 weeks. I lost about 12 lbs within this timeframe while getting stronger, but I looked kind of scrawnier. I certainly didn't look stronger.

I followed Stronglifts for about 3 months or so before switching to my current training, which I have been following for about 5-6 weeks. Diet remained unchanged, except that rather than doing heavy carb refeeds 1-2 weeks, I do more frequent smaller refeeds (i.e. maybe an extra 500 calories a day). I increased the reps from 5 to around 8-12 on upper body, and 10-15 on lower body, and work each muscle 2x per week, with a total of around 26 sets per large muscle groups, and 18 sets per smaller muscle group. I SIGNIFICANTLY decreased the weight I use, and keep perfect form on all sets. I use a weight that allows me to feel an intense burn by the 3rd or 4th last rep, that way I can push out a few more reps with pain.

The results? I've actually gained about 5 lbs, I look bigger/fuller and more pumped, and my arms have gained 0.5 inches. I look more like a bodybuilder now than I did when I was lifting heavy. I know the weight I have gained is pure glycogen, but it's funny how I did not change diet or caloric intake, yet I'm holding more weight and look bigger.

Moral of the story: if you're going for PURE size, and bodybuilder-style look, you don't need to lift heavy. Go for the burn, push a few more reps out, and feel the pump. Eat sufficient protein, and play with your carbs to maximize glycogen storage, without looking too "puffy" and soft.

#2 Baddog671

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 11:33 PM

What would you expect the results to be if you had a mixed routine? For example, I do 5x5 flat BB bench (not counting warm up set or maybe a 1 heavy rep after 5x5), but then I do 10 rep DB flyes and inclines...

#3 kris90

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 12:21 PM

What would you expect the results to be if you had a mixed routine? For example, I do 5x5 flat BB bench (not counting warm up set or maybe a 1 heavy rep after 5x5), but then I do 10 rep DB flyes and inclines...



I would think going heavy on your compound lifts, but lighter on the isolation could be quite beneficial. You should get the best of both worlds: gaining strength on your main lifts, and develop your muscles through higher-rep isolation work.

I think my point I was trying to make is if you want PURE size, and don't care for strength, try higher reps on everything. If you want pure strength and don't care for size, go lower rep training style. With the training you do, I feel like you could incorporate both aspects, however not necessarily optimizing your efforts geared toward one particular goal.

#4 oddman09

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 12:46 PM

Im glad you posted this, from all my years of training ive realized that people seem to only be able to count to 10. For the life of me i cant understand why. That number gives you a huge mind feck at the gym. Im always asked how in the hell im so big, cause a lot of times im lifting bitch weight. When i tell them to stop lifting with their ego, drop the weight and do more repetitions with constant tension and good form, im looked at like im crazy. Dont get me wrong, i can still do some heavy weight, but its not effective when my goal is to get bigger.
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#5 kimura

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 01:30 PM

Just wanted to give some tips in case people were wondering. This is purely from my own experience, and I know I am not a big dude by any means.

I recently switched my training from one extreme to the other. I started doing Stronglifts 5x5 which is more of a strength-based training routine that stimulates the CNS to recruit more motor units to allow strength gains to be made. Well it worked very well for getting stronger. I followed a low carb diet and ate mostly fatty meats, veggies, nuts/seeds, and cooked with oils/butters with heavy carb refeeds every 1-2 weeks. I lost about 12 lbs within this timeframe while getting stronger, but I looked kind of scrawnier. I certainly didn't look stronger.

I followed Stronglifts for about 3 months or so before switching to my current training, which I have been following for about 5-6 weeks. Diet remained unchanged, except that rather than doing heavy carb refeeds 1-2 weeks, I do more frequent smaller refeeds (i.e. maybe an extra 500 calories a day). I increased the reps from 5 to around 8-12 on upper body, and 10-15 on lower body, and work each muscle 2x per week, with a total of around 26 sets per large muscle groups, and 18 sets per smaller muscle group. I SIGNIFICANTLY decreased the weight I use, and keep perfect form on all sets. I use a weight that allows me to feel an intense burn by the 3rd or 4th last rep, that way I can push out a few more reps with pain.

The results? I've actually gained about 5 lbs, I look bigger/fuller and more pumped, and my arms have gained 0.5 inches. I look more like a bodybuilder now than I did when I was lifting heavy. I know the weight I have gained is pure glycogen, but it's funny how I did not change diet or caloric intake, yet I'm holding more weight and look bigger.

Moral of the story: if you're going for PURE size, and bodybuilder-style look, you don't need to lift heavy. Go for the burn, push a few more reps out, and feel the pump. Eat sufficient protein, and play with your carbs to maximize glycogen storage, without looking too "puffy" and soft.



I noticed you are doing both isolation & compound movements, and have a feq Q's:

1. Are you doing isolation first then compound movement e.g. pre-exhaust?
2. Are you doing compound movement first THEN isolation e.g. post-exhaust?
3. How long was it until you noticed measureable\observable results in size?

Reason I ask is that I am attempting to do the same, while slowly gaining mass. Its very slow apparently, but I am using a 5\3\1 pyramid scheme where I go all out on my last set, and then follow it by doing db front raises, and a few sets of 10's on chinups.

I also do not rest for 60-120 seconds. My rest period is however long it takes me to put the weight down, adjust, then lift, so maybe 10-15 seconds.

Thanks for sharing this.

#6 kris90

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 03:15 PM

I noticed you are doing both isolation & compound movements, and have a feq Q's:

1. Are you doing isolation first then compound movement e.g. pre-exhaust?
2. Are you doing compound movement first THEN isolation e.g. post-exhaust?
3. How long was it until you noticed measureable\observable results in size?

Reason I ask is that I am attempting to do the same, while slowly gaining mass. Its very slow apparently, but I am using a 5\3\1 pyramid scheme where I go all out on my last set, and then follow it by doing db front raises, and a few sets of 10's on chinups.

I also do not rest for 60-120 seconds. My rest period is however long it takes me to put the weight down, adjust, then lift, so maybe 10-15 seconds.

Thanks for sharing this.


I like to do my compound movements first. Because although I'm lifting light on all exercises, I'm still obviously pushing more weight on my compounds. I really do like the idea of pre-exhausting the muscle though, and I have heard some had good results with this method. I have not tried it, but it's something I may consider.

I noticed changes almost instantly in regards to feeling more "pumped". I'd say by 2 weeks, I noticed my muscles looked more swollen. It was almost as if the pump I achieved from my workout was sustained. Also the frequent mini-carb loads probably filled my glycogen, and with this style of training I believe glycogen supercompensation is achieved, allowing greater glycogen storage which probably enhances hypertrophy.

#7 mid40s

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 04:07 PM

Im glad you posted this, from all my years of training ive realized that people seem to only be able to count to 10. For the life of me i cant understand why. That number gives you a huge mind feck at the gym. Im always asked how in the hell im so big, cause a lot of times im lifting bitch weight. When i tell them to stop lifting with their ego, drop the weight and do more repetitions with constant tension and good form, im looked at like im crazy. Dont get me wrong, i can still do some heavy weight, but its not effective when my goal is to get bigger.


I like to lift until I can't squeeze out another rep, put the weight down, take a minute and add or reduce weight as necessary and repeat. fatigue the muscles and freakin eat, eat, eat.

#8 kris90

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 05:56 PM

I like to lift until I can't squeeze out another rep, put the weight down, take a minute and add or reduce weight as necessary and repeat. fatigue the muscles and freakin eat, eat, eat.


Ya I like those kind of sets. Dropsets. I need to get more spontaneous with my training.

#9 kimura

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 07:37 PM

I like to do my compound movements first. Because although I'm lifting light on all exercises, I'm still obviously pushing more weight on my compounds. I really do like the idea of pre-exhausting the muscle though, and I have heard some had good results with this method. I have not tried it, but it's something I may consider.

I noticed changes almost instantly in regards to feeling more "pumped". I'd say by 2 weeks, I noticed my muscles looked more swollen. It was almost as if the pump I achieved from my workout was sustained. Also the frequent mini-carb loads probably filled my glycogen, and with this style of training I believe glycogen supercompensation is achieved, allowing greater glycogen storage which probably enhances hypertrophy.


What does your workout look like? You dont have to get specific, but I am wondering if you are doing full body, or splits.
I am doing full body, and 5 sets of 10 at 65% of my 1RM with little to no rest between sets with a compumd lift, and then I will follow up with 2-3 sets of 10 on an isolation movement e.g. front db raises.

#10 themaharaja

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 10:44 PM

once i ditched the heavy weights and low reps and moved to high reps and lower weight, I really made substantial progress. I made progress before, but now its taking off and has been consistent for months.

#11 B i o

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Posted 03 January 2014 - 11:00 PM

For real .. 4x10 is the best shot

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#12 kris90

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 10:23 AM

What does your workout look like? You dont have to get specific, but I am wondering if you are doing full body, or splits.
I am doing full body, and 5 sets of 10 at 65% of my 1RM with little to no rest between sets with a compumd lift, and then I will follow up with 2-3 sets of 10 on an isolation movement e.g. front db raises.



I'll do something like this:
Day 1 - Chest/Back/Abs
Day 2 - Shoulders/Arms/Calves
Day 3 - Legs/Abs

Repeat


I do a few compounds exercises and an isolation exercise for each, and about 3-4 different exercises for 3-5 sets. 8-12 reps upper body, and 10-15 reps lower body.

Abs is nonstop, high reps for about 10 minutes, as is calves.
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#13 bradray

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 05:27 PM

Great thread. I just got back to working out after a few months break, and that is exactly what i am doing. I do either double or triple sets with trying to get one compound lift per super set. I have noticed a lot more pump and i feel a lot fuller than usual as far as muscle density goes. I am striving for the 10-15 range or until it burns and going for always under tension and perfect form which requires the ego to be checked at the door. I am not really worried about how much i can deadlift, bench or squat, i just want to be healthy and halfway look like i lift. How much weight i can lift or how well i lift it does not get me anywhere though unless i am eating properly and getting the proper sleep

#14 kimura

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 05:42 PM

Its this type of information contained in this thread and some others, where we can really build on eachothers shoulders and become giants. Im going to experiment with increasing the sets\reps and dropping the weight for my isolation movements, and pursue increasing my strength via compound lifts, whether it be increasing the sets and\or reps while slowly increasing weight.
Good stuff in here!

#15 bossman523

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 06:45 PM

this is a great thread. i am finding that i grow better with lower weight and higher reps, and my joints like it a lot more too. although i still go heavy sometimes too

#16 kimura

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 07:31 PM

For real .. 4x10 is the best shot

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Would you mind sharing your experiences with this vs 3x10, 5x5, 6x6 for example? Im wondering if there is a common thread in results. I have heard of one other person not explicitly mention 4x10, but he did say why stop at 3x10?

#17 bossman523

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 07:35 PM

anyone ever do german volume training? 10 x 10!! it's good stuff

#18 Eva01

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Posted 04 January 2014 - 09:09 PM

Would you mind sharing your experiences with this vs 3x10, 5x5, 6x6 for example? Im wondering if there is a common thread in results. I have heard of one other person not explicitly mention 4x10, but he did say why stop at 3x10?

I've done 5x5, 4x8, 3x10, 4x10 and I have to say that:
5x5: great for strength, not so much for size
4x8: great combination of stregth and size
3x10: alright for size if ego is left behind along with heavy weights and focus on form
4x10: best for cutting while mantaining me full, the personal trainer in my gym even asked me if I was heavier on this routine despite I was lighter but definition was greatly increased

#19 oddman09

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 06:44 PM

Im surprised no one here does 15-20 rep ranges. Try it out, concentrating on the muscle being worked and squeezing. works wonders for size.

#20 zarathustra

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 07:20 PM

I work at 15-20 a fair bit actually.

I remember seeing a study showing that there was no difference in muscle growth comparing groups who did 8 reps vs another that did 20+ reps. As long as each went to exhaustion the muscle grew by about the same rate. Easier on the joints, great for a pump and some of those exercises that feel awkward as hell with a heavy weight.
If you do it rest/pause style you can still move a decent weight anyway.
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#21 hewhoisripped

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 08:40 PM

This is key. You can split it up into heavy/light days or just mash it into one day. And depending on the goal (strength vs size) do more heavy or more pump lifting.
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#22 B i o

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 06:07 AM

I've done 5x5, 4x8, 3x10, 4x10 and I have to say that:
5x5: great for strength, not so much for size
4x8: great combination of stregth and size
3x10: alright for size if ego is left behind along with heavy weights and focus on form
4x10: best for cutting while mantaining me full, the personal trainer in my gym even asked me if I was heavier on this routine despite I was lighter but definition was greatly increased


I also done these and plus 6x6-8 .. good for strength but not so good for mass ... 4x8-10 so far is the one i am liking the most for mass gains

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#23 kris90

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 09:05 AM

Im surprised no one here does 15-20 rep ranges. Try it out, concentrating on the muscle being worked and squeezing. works wonders for size.




I'm definitely going to try this!

Also wondering how a lot of you guys train. Do you train spontaneously? Go into the gym, decide what muscle to hit, and hit it differently from your previous workout for that muscle? I've always been the type to follow a routine and write things down to help progress, but I want to start training more spontaneously, and just switch things up for continued progress.

#24 chez

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 09:08 AM

60% workout weight, 10 sets of 10 reps, never lockout knees or elbows (constant tension), slow reps, squeeze target muscle group. This method is helping me grow exponentially.

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#25 chez

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 09:10 AM

I just try to hit all muscle groups at least once a week hard. The order by which I do it doesn't concern me.

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