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What is your take on cycle "support" supplements?

blood blood pressure cholesterol cycle like liver milk thistle otc pct supplements

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#26 SpiderJerusalem

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 09:21 PM

I would mostly agree. I've never seen a real juicer touch any of that crap, but that doesn't mean an RX drug like fenofibrate will not offer a benefit. Will experiment this cycle and see the blood work in a couple months.


Well, maybe not, but an extreme case to illustrate why they might want to: Andreas Munzer
Note the description of what they found post-mortem with his liver, among other organs... yuck!

Tell you what, why not try the Essentiale Forte and see what it does for your liver enzymes? I mean if you're getting bloods done anyway and want to experiment.

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#27 mr.cooper69

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 07:53 AM

Well, maybe not, but an extreme case to illustrate why they might want to: Andreas Munzer
Note the description of what they found post-mortem with his liver, among other organs... yuck!

Tell you what, why not try the Essentiale Forte and see what it does for your liver enzymes? I mean if you're getting bloods done anyway and want to experiment.


This was due to adenomas, which were pre-neoplastic (pre-cancerous) lesions. This has absolutely nothing to do with transiently elevated AST/ALT, though androgens/estrogens are correlated with increased risk of hepatic adenoma.

#28 SpiderJerusalem

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 09:22 AM

This was due to adenomas, which were pre-neoplastic (pre-cancerous) lesions. This has absolutely nothing to do with transiently elevated AST/ALT, though androgens/estrogens are correlated with increased risk of hepatic adenoma.


That was part of it, yes. The other was described thusly:
"Affecting the liver were numerous table-tennis-ball-sized tumors; half the liver consisted simply of a crumbly mass, similar to polystyrene (Styrofoam)"

Sounds like there was more going on there than just the tumors, unless tumors also cause that kind of organ deterioration? But then that makes one ask, why were the tumors appearing anyway--was it because the liver was already compromised, and due to an inability (over time) to detoxify the massive amounts of steroids (and other potentially liver-toxic chemicals) Munzer had been using long-term? I don't have an answer to this, but it would be logical to assume that his liver ended up the way it did because he had in fact been using multiple liver-toxic substances for prolonged periods of time, and evidently without any kind of protective regimen (I've certainly never heard of him using any protectants of any kind, certainly not on the list of substances he was purported to have been taking) other than some aspirin.

Here's why I keep mentioning and suggesting the use of the Essentiale when one is using liver-toxic chemicals:
"Essentiale (polyenylphosphatidylcholine or PPC, with or without synergistic vitamins) is a preparation of essential phospholipids. Essentiale normalizes the metabolism of lipids and proteins, improves the detoxification function of the liver, restores the cellular structure of the liver and retards the producing of conjunctive tissue. Essentiale medications are indicated for the treatment of fatty degeneration of the liver, hepatitis (including toxic hepatitis, liver damage caused by medicines or alcohol abuse), cirrhosis of the liver, disturbances in liver function associated with different illnesses."

PubMed has more studies/info on this.

In Munzer's case and with the amount of stuff he was taking, I'm not claiming something like Essentiale would have "saved" him. But had he known what all that stuff was doing to his liver--and assuming he would have decided to keep using it regardless--I'm sure he would have added some protection had he known of any at the time, no?

Edited by SpiderJerusalem, 06 April 2014 - 12:15 PM.
links, etc

"its fucking lasik surgery for christ sake. relax. its not like you are getting a triple bypass" :facepalm:
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#29 frank thomas

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 12:37 PM

Antaeus Labs Aegis and Talos will pretty much cover all your needs as far as staying healthy on cycle.

Obviously you'll want an AI as on-cycle support (just in case), but there's no reason to go with an OTC AI when you can grab exem, adex or letro.


Talos is one the best supplements I have ever used. My BP started climbing and I started taking the Talos and dropped it right down. I feel good while using it.

#30 mr.cooper69

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 10:19 PM

I'm surprised they didn't actually list the condition at autopsy, but a crumbly mass is suggestive of hemorrhagic hepatic hemangioma, which again, is unrelated to liver enzymes.

Signs of actual liver damage and not neoplastic transformation are things like Zone 3 necrosis, widespread nodular fibrosis, cell swelling and Mallory bodies, etc.

Chronic damage produces a hard, bumpy liver, not a crumbly one.

#31 mrsliz1724

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 06:28 AM

The liver is a pretty resilient organ and is pretty good at rebuilding itself. Virtually all "on cycle support" is a waste of money. But if it makes you feel better that feel-good placebo is worth something I guess



Yah this is just foolish bro-talk.
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#32 frank thomas

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 06:45 AM

When I started in this aas genre in the early/mid eighties, there was not such thing as On Cycle Support. PCT was barely thought of until Dan Duchanie published his underground book. And the only PCT available was HCG when you could find it. Clomid was almost impossible to get back then.

Besides taken Talos/aegis (tudca), I strongly recommend a tincture of reishi mushrooms, especially from fungi perfecti.
http://www.dl.begell...0d5f33a4c5.html

Edited by frank thomas, 07 April 2014 - 07:59 AM.


#33 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 07:37 AM

I'm surprised they didn't actually list the condition at autopsy, but a crumbly mass is suggestive of hemorrhagic hepatic hemangioma, which again, is unrelated to liver enzymes.

Signs of actual liver damage and not neoplastic transformation are things like Zone 3 necrosis, widespread nodular fibrosis, cell swelling and Mallory bodies, etc.

Chronic damage produces a hard, bumpy liver, not a crumbly one.


hard and bumpy with oinions, thats how i like mine

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#34 13bret

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 08:34 AM

hard and bumpy with oinions, thats how i like mine


Bleeck, eew nasty. Lol

#35 seabiscuit hogg

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 09:19 AM

hard and bumpy with oinions, thats how i like mine

lol. Barbq if its chicken livers.

#36 SpiderJerusalem

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:18 AM

hard and bumpy with oinions, thats how i like mine

Attached File  hannibal.jpg   18.76KB   97 downloads

"its fucking lasik surgery for christ sake. relax. its not like you are getting a triple bypass" :facepalm:
--P.A.


"Domesticated badgers? Really? As pets?"

--Walter Bishop


#37 SpiderJerusalem

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 11:24 AM

I'm surprised they didn't actually list the condition at autopsy, but a crumbly mass is suggestive of hemorrhagic hepatic hemangioma, which again, is unrelated to liver enzymes.

Signs of actual liver damage and not neoplastic transformation are things like Zone 3 necrosis, widespread nodular fibrosis, cell swelling and Mallory bodies, etc.

Chronic damage produces a hard, bumpy liver, not a crumbly one.


The guy had so much going on with him though that I find it difficult to accept pinning the problems down to only one issue.
And elevated liver enzymes are also indicative of any of a large swathe of problems.

I think many of us will continue to err on the side of caution--assuming whatever liver support one uses does not actually cause problems of its own. As mentioned and linked in my previous discussion of Essential Forte, there were markedly better enzyme levels among bodybuilders in the study using the EF versus those using nothing or placebo.

"its fucking lasik surgery for christ sake. relax. its not like you are getting a triple bypass" :facepalm:
--P.A.


"Domesticated badgers? Really? As pets?"

--Walter Bishop


#38 AZ JB

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 09:04 AM

Silymarin is just an antioxidant. All of it's positive effects shown in the literature has been due to it acting as such. When compared to Vitamin C or E, it is of similar effectiveness in helping prevent organ damage (ie there is nothing special about it). This is why most new studies done on it are a combination of silymarin and vitamin E together.

In my opinion, if you want to prevent free radical damage to your liver during a cycle, just take the good old vitamin C / E. It will have the same effect.
Now, if you actually want to take something that may help prevent liver damage, take TUDCA as they give you UDCA if you show up to the hospital with liver cholestasis due to steroid use.


Milk thistle/silymarin is completely pointless if being used for your liver on-cycle. Use TUDCA. You are wasting your money on milk thistle if you are taking it for your liver.
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#39 mrsliz1724

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 09:42 AM

Milk thistle/silymarin is completely pointless if being used for your liver on-cycle. Use TUDCA. You are wasting your money on milk thistle if you are taking it for your liver.



Care to explain? Because this in no way correlates with the slew of studies I have researched and the general pharmacology of silymarin.
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#40 seabiscuit hogg

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:08 AM

Care to explain? Because this in no way correlates with the slew of studies I have researched and the general pharmacology of silymarin.

Same here and it's dirt cheap.

#41 frank thomas

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:42 PM

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Milk thistle/silymarin is completely pointless if being used for your liver on-cycle. Use TUDCA. You are wasting your money on milk thistle if you are taking it for your liver.


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#42 ASFh32

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 07:37 PM

Could you elucidate/elaborate?


I dunno it seemed like a pretty straight forward statement to me.

#43 Oper8

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 08:17 PM

I'm surprised they didn't actually list the condition at autopsy, but a crumbly mass is suggestive of hemorrhagic hepatic hemangioma, which again, is unrelated to liver enzymes.

Signs of actual liver damage and not neoplastic transformation are things like Zone 3 necrosis, widespread nodular fibrosis, cell swelling and Mallory bodies, etc.

Chronic damage produces a hard, bumpy liver, not a crumbly one.

Didn't really read the report, but I would assume what they found was Peliosis hepatis
"You have to ask a doctor or google"

#44 SpiderJerusalem

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:08 PM

I dunno it seemed like a pretty straight forward statement to me.


Uh-huh, straight-forward with absolutely no attempt to explain it. Thus the request for elucidation/elaboration.
Pretty standard and straight-forward request.

"its fucking lasik surgery for christ sake. relax. its not like you are getting a triple bypass" :facepalm:
--P.A.


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#45 SpiderJerusalem

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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:19 PM

Didn't really read the report, but I would assume what they found was Peliosis hepatis


Would AST/ALT levels be indicative of this type of liver damage (among others)?

"its fucking lasik surgery for christ sake. relax. its not like you are getting a triple bypass" :facepalm:
--P.A.


"Domesticated badgers? Really? As pets?"

--Walter Bishop


#46 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 05:41 AM

Would AST/ALT levels be indicative of this type of liver damage (among others)?



google is so rich with medical information.

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#47 SpiderJerusalem

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 08:16 AM

google is so rich with medical information.


I know, I did look. The most I could find on places like Wikipedia and NIH and various steroid sites was some discussion of AST/ALT (and at various rations/levels) being a good "general" indicator for many types of liver damage, but I could find nothing explicitly mentioning whether Peliosis Hepatis specifically could also be detected/indicated this way, though it was often mentioned in the same paragraph(s) along with other conditions.

"its fucking lasik surgery for christ sake. relax. its not like you are getting a triple bypass" :facepalm:
--P.A.


"Domesticated badgers? Really? As pets?"

--Walter Bishop


#48 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 08:35 AM

I know, I did look. The most I could find on places like Wikipedia and NIH and various steroid sites was some discussion of AST/ALT (and at various rations/levels) being a good "general" indicator for many types of liver damage, but I could find nothing explicitly mentioning whether Peliosis Hepatis specifically could also be detected/indicated this way, though it was often mentioned in the same paragraph(s) along with other conditions.



u arent stupid. obviously if AST/ALT is a general indicator of liver problems than its not going to be much of an indicator for peliosis hepatitis. Certainly it might be present with the disease just like fatigue can be present with cancer or simply not getting enough sleep

surely u can find information on the symptoms and diagnosis of peliosis hepatitis somewhere on the net

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#49 SpiderJerusalem

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 08:49 AM

u arent stupid. obviously if AST/ALT is a general indicator of liver problems than its not going to be much of an indicator for peliosis hepatitis. Certainly it might be present with the disease just like fatigue can be present with cancer or simply not getting enough sleep

surely u can find information on the symptoms and diagnosis of peliosis hepatitis somewhere on the net


From Wikipedia:
"The condition is typically asymptomatic and is discovered following evaluation of abnormal liver function test. However, when severe it can manifest as jaundice, hepatomegaly, liver failure and haemoperitoneum."

And that link for the liver function test includes AST/ALT levels (among other things), of course. Which is what I already came across the first time I searched. I know it might be a chicken-or-egg thing, but one would think that any treatment that is normalizing AST/ALT levels is also repairing any liver damage, especially if while doing so no other signs of liver damage appeared/advanced and/or if existing symptoms diminished/disappeared. So to dig back a few posts, my assumption is that yes, it's worth taking some kind of liver protection, and that AST/ALT levels *would* be somewhat indicative of any "damage" (as per the link above) even with that caused by Peliosis Hepatis, and that those raised AST/ALT levels are NOT necessarily just "transient", which goes back to my original point about Andreas Munzer being a poster-boy for why users of these substances would be better off using liver protection than not.

"its fucking lasik surgery for christ sake. relax. its not like you are getting a triple bypass" :facepalm:
--P.A.


"Domesticated badgers? Really? As pets?"

--Walter Bishop


#50 Oper8

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 07:08 PM

One of the main ways AAS negatively affect the liver is via drug-induced cholestasis. Taking something like UDCA can help treat this particular disorder to some degree, in the case of Munzer it likely wouldn't have changed anything. And as PA pointed out, elevated LFT's can be caused by about 6000 different things. On the list of differential diagnoses, peliosis hepatis would be about number 5999.

Edited by Oper8, 10 April 2014 - 07:10 PM.

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