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Amino's VS Protein Post Workout

amino aminos bcaa better confused products protein question workout

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#26 branniganslaw

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 02:36 PM

The copying of the references was simply to indicate that there has been other research done on the subject aside from the article I linked directly. lol @ making half-assed assumptions.


Nah, my assumption was correct, as you've just verified. You copy/pasted someone else's references without reading the papers in question yourself in an effort to lend credence to your argument. The problem is, not a single one of those references supports the claims you're making about additional bcaas. If you had read any of them you would know that.

Also, you need to make up your mind--was it an "overnight" fast, or was it "24 hours"? lol @ not even being able to retain consistency in your own post.


It was overnight, then they also got no protein post workout. Whether its overnight or 24 hours, not reflective of what the majority of us would do. This is some strong nitpicking - who gives a shit if it was 8, 12, 16 hours?

To recap - your prize reference shows that fasted, BCAAs are superior to nothing. For the record, sugar, or any other source of calories is also superior to nothing in this context. So, next time you want to prove the point that eating before or after training is superior to not eating, feel free to trot this one out. As an argument in support of the notion that ADDITIONAL BCAAs on top of an already high protein intake, with pre and post nutrition, it utterly fails. Which again, you would know, had you read the paper.

BCAA's are digested and assimilated much faster than (whole) protein sources. I challenge you to find anything showing that proves, say, Leucine for example, doesn't take much longer to be liberated (and used) from a whole protein source via digestion than from free-form BCAA.


That's a nice strawman you're building up there. No one said BCAAs aren't digested faster. The argument is, WHAT BENEFIT does that provide? If peak MPS stimulation occurs at 30mins post ingestion vs. 1hr post ingestion (as you would be with bcaa vs whey), especially when we know that there is a 3 hour refractory period before MPS can be spiked again with another threshold leucine dose?

Edited by branniganslaw, 15 April 2014 - 02:48 PM.

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#27 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 02:58 PM

add a TD tne also.. between sets.. applied to muscle you're training


and PA.. my understanding was you want high gi (karbolyn) pwo.. but when consuming carbs w/ protein or fat, the gi goes out the window and everything digests the same.. which is why I consumer the karbolyn w/ BCAA..
in YOUR opinion.. am I better off with a whey + karbolyn, just whey, just karbolyn.. karbolyn + Bcaa + eaa ?...

WHATEVER SHOULD I DO
help a conflicted brotha out.



the glycemic index does not go out the window when consuming with protein or fat, thats a myth

and i am not aware of evidence supporting your carbs having to be high glycemic pwo

i personally do essential amino acids with carbs and/or ketones before and during the workout and then just a meal sometime within 90 minutes after. I usually dont feel like eating right after training

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#28 SpiderJerusalem

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 03:11 PM

Nah, my assumption was correct, as you've just verified. You copy/pasted someone else's references without reading the papers in question yourself in an effort to lend credence to your argument. The problem is, not a single one of those references supports the claims you're making about additional bcaas. If you had read any of them you would know that.


Sure they do--they show that supplementing with BCAA's leads to faster recovery.

And if you actually knew how to read, you could have seen that I didn't state that those particular references were directly in support of my initial argument, only that that they indicated additional (as in, "other") benefits to supplementing BCAA's. I made no other claims about them--you made up those claims yourself.

It was overnight, then they also got no protein post workout. Whether its overnight or 24 hours, not reflective of what the majority of us would do. This is some strong nitpicking - who gives a shit if it was 8, 12, 16 hours?


Makes a big difference. Most people are likely to have an overnight fast, not a 24-hour fast. In terms of potential muscle catabolism and exercise recovery, it matters. But my other point was that you were accusing me of not reading, and yet apparently, neither were you.

To recap - your prize reference shows that fasted, BCAAs are superior to nothing. For the record, sugar, or any other source of calories is also superior to nothing in this context. So, next time you want to prove the point that eating before or after training is superior to not eating, feel free to trot this one out. As an argument in support of the notion that ADDITIONAL BCAAs on top of an already high protein intake, with pre and post nutrition, it utterly fails. Which again, you would know, had you read the paper.


We're talking about recovery and anti-catabolism here--are you really going to make the claim that "sugar" (or other "calories") would be equivalent or superior to BCAA's in terms of muscle repair? Because that's what your above statement seems to be claiming, and I've never heard of anything quite so ludicrous. Last I heard, muscle was not made of sugar.
The POINT of BCAA's is that they are digested faster and assimilated by the body faster, leading to FASTER RECOVERY (and reduced muscle catabolism). Protein, even whey, takes longer to digest and assimilate. If you can't see the connection being made there, I don't know what else to tell you. I'm not claiming there's a huge difference between supplementing BCAA's or not, but there is obvious benefit in getting the BCAA's into one's system faster. If there wasn't, then we'd all be eating protein only once per day or week, right? As this guy says, BCAA's are more like the "icing on the cake" in terms of supplementing on a diet already taking in adequate protein and carbs. Fine. But that's still counter to your and your buddy's claim that they "do nothing".


That's a nice strawman you're building up there. No one said BCAAs aren't digested faster. The argument is, WHAT BENEFIT can you does that provide? If peak MPS stimulation occurs at 30mins post ingestion vs. 1hr post ingestion (as you would be with bcaa vs whey), especially when we know that there is a 3 hour refractory period before MPS can be spiked again with another threshold leucine dose?


Faster digestion/assimilation = faster recovery; I'd have thought that would be obvious.
You know, 30 minutes less time for any catabolism to take place, which may be more of a factor depending on how fasted (or not) someone happens to be.
And the added Leucine is going to stimulate a greater anabolic response than the whey alone anyway by spiking blood leucine levels DUE TO ITS FASTER ABSORPTION THAN FROM THE WHEY ALONE.

EDIT: and, to answer your second "strawman" accusation in your follow-up post below, here's what your buddy actually said:
"theres not much reason to take anything intra or pre or post. eat before and after a workout and thats all you really need."
So, either he's saying here that there is "no" reason to use BCAA's apart from eating food (wrong), or else he's admitting that there *is* a reason but refrains from mentioning it--so which did he mean?

Edited by SpiderJerusalem, 15 April 2014 - 05:57 PM.
Because I'm right, and I hate seeing unsubstantiated BS like the other guy is spewing be allowed to fly.

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#29 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 03:14 PM

dumb argument going on here. get some protein (aminos) and carbs in your system before/during your work out and the whole BCAA issue will be moot.

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#30 SpiderJerusalem

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 03:22 PM

dumb argument going on here. get some protein (aminos) and carbs in your system before/during your work out and the whole BCAA issue will be moot.

Attached File  ergopharm-all-in-one.jpg   13.01KB   64 downloads
:yodawg:

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#31 branniganslaw

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 03:46 PM

dumb argument going on here. get some protein (aminos) and carbs in your system before/during your work out and the whole BCAA issue will be moot.


well actually this is the whole point newb and I were making - if you've had protein (be it bcaa or whole protein) pre/post - additional bcaas on top of that are not likely helpful. And studies comparing bcaas to nothing, on an empty stomach, have little relevance to that context.
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#32 branniganslaw

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 03:48 PM

i personally do essential amino acids with carbs and/or ketones before and during the workout and then just a meal sometime within 90 minutes after. I usually dont feel like eating right after training


Hold on there just one second... do you mean to tell me I can just make sure to get some protein in me pre and post, and leave the rest up to my individual preference, without thinking up some post-hoc scientifical-sounding justification for my preference?

Inconceivable!
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#33 branniganslaw

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 03:50 PM

Sure they do--they show that supplementing with BCAA's leads to faster recovery.


Not one of those papers compares supplemental BCAAs on top of an already protein rich diet in humans.

We're talking about recovery and anti-catabolism here--are you really going to make the claim that "sugar" (or other "calories") would be equivalent or superior to BCAA's in terms of muscle repair? Because that's what your above statement seems to be claiming, and I've never heard of anything quite so ludicrous. Last I heard, muscle was made of sugar.


I am not claiming anything, your reading comprehension needs work.

What I pointed out was, eating ANYTHING pre/post is superior to eating NOTHING when coming in on an empty stomach. (Hence my reference to sugar - there are in fact studies showing that taking in sugars post training is better than taking in nothing.)

The comparison you would need to support your point, is BCAAS pre/post vs whole protein pre/post, NOT BCAAS vs nothing.

Protein, even whey, takes longer to digest and assimilate.



Yes ,it does. Whey takes about an hour to fully stimulate MPS, BCAAs may take 15-30 mins.

No one is disuputing this.

Given the fact that you can only spike MPS once every 3 hours, and that taking in further leucine within those 3 hours (pulsing it) is in fact counter productive, what benefit is there from that?

If you can't see the connection being made there, I don't know what else to tell you


The POINT of BCAA's is that they are digested faster and assimilated by the body faster, leading to FASTER RECOVERY (and reduced muscle catabolism).


The bold is what is being disputed - it is a claim not supported by the evidence. The fact that it seems obvious to you, does not mean it is borne out under scientific rigor.

"Isn't it obvious, thats the point?!?" is not evidence, it's just repeating your claim louder, with incredulity.

But that's still counter to your and your buddy's claim that they "do nothing".


Another strawman. No one has claimed they 'do nothing'. The onus is on you to support your claim that supplementing them on top of whole protein pre/post workout has additional benefit.

edit: This is not a productive use of my time - done here. Good luck with your muscles.

Edited by branniganslaw, 15 April 2014 - 03:51 PM.
because PA was right, waste of time

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#34 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 03:54 PM

Hold on there just one second... do you mean to tell me I can just make sure to get some protein in me pre and post, and leave the rest up to my individual preference, without thinking up some post-hoc scientifical-sounding justification for my preference?

Inconceivable!


YOu will find your brain will be freed up to worry about much more important things

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#35 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 03:56 PM

[ATTACH=CONFIG]14728[/ATTACH]
:yodawg:


Now its this

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#36 SpiderJerusalem

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:12 PM

For anyone not wanting to take mine or the other guy's word at face value for any of this, a much more reasoned discussion of the pros and cons of BCAA supplementation can be found here.

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#37 seabiscuit hogg

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:15 PM

well actually this is the whole point newb and I were making - if you've had protein (be it bcaa or whole protein) pre/post - additional bcaas on top of that are not likely helpful. And studies comparing bcaas to nothing, on an empty stomach, have little relevance to that context.

Fasted cardio is a use for BCAAs or for a anti-catabolic effect if u lift in a fasted state. I played around with them a bit but wasn't that impressed. Fast carbs and protein pre and food post will work.

#38 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:16 PM

For anyone not wanting to take mine or the other guy's word at face value for any of this, a much more reasoned discussion of the pros and cons of BCAA supplementation can be found here.


a cursory glance at that roundtable seems to show the consensus is that the usefulness of BCAA supplementation in the context of abundant dietary protien intake is limited

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#39 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:17 PM

Fasted cardio is a use for BCAAs or for a anti-catabolic effect if u lift in a fasted state. I played around with them a bit but wasn't that impressed. Fast carbs and protein pre and food post will work.


certainly bcaa's will be helpful if you lift in a fasted state. a full spectrum EAA blend IMO would be even better. Add some carbs on top of that, even better


or just fucking eat

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#40 SpiderJerusalem

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 04:30 PM

a cursory glance at that roundtable seems to show the consensus is that the usefulness of BCAA supplementation in the context of abundant dietary protien intake is limited


I don't disagree. But I would add that the benefits appear to vary depending on one's training/eating goals.
By my count though, there appear to be 4 participants in favor of BCAA supplementation (to varying degrees), and 4 stating that it isn't "necessary".

But what I also found of particular interest was in the references at the bottom of the page, namely this study:
Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects.
"The present study was designed to determine postexercise muscle protein synthesis and whole body protein balance following the combined ingestion of carbohydrate with or without protein and/or free leucine. Eight male subjects were randomly assigned to three trials in which they consumed drinks containing either carbohydrate (CHO), carbohydrate and protein (CHO+PRO), or carbohydrate, protein, and free leucine (CHO+PRO+Leu) following 45 min of resistance exercise. A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine was applied, with blood samples and muscle biopsies collected to assess fractional synthetic rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle as well as whole body protein turnover during 6 h of postexercise recovery. Plasma insulin response was higher in the CHO+PRO+Leu compared with the CHO and CHO+PRO trials (+240 +/- 19% and +77 +/- 11%, respectively, P < 0.05). Whole body protein breakdown rates were lower, and whole body protein synthesis rates were higher, in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials compared with the CHO trial (P < 0.05). Addition of leucine in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial resulted in a lower protein oxidation rate compared with the CHO+PRO trial. Protein balance was negative during recovery in the CHO trial but positive in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials. In the CHO+PRO+Leu trial, whole body net protein balance was significantly greater compared with values observed in the CHO+PRO and CHO trials (P < 0.05). Mixed muscle FSR, measured over a 6-h period of postexercise recovery, was significantly greater in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial compared with the CHO trial (0.095 +/- 0.006 vs. 0.061 +/- 0.008%/h, respectively, P < 0.05), with intermediate values observed in the CHO+PRO trial (0.0820 +/- 0.0104%/h). We conclude that coingestion of protein and leucine stimulates muscle protein synthesis and optimizes whole body protein balance compared with the intake of carbohydrate only."

Looks like the study makes a good case for adding BCAA Leucine on top of one's existing food intake to me...

Edited by SpiderJerusalem, 15 April 2014 - 05:26 PM.

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#41 bradray

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:33 PM

Only thing i was saying was i do high intensity cardio as soon as i wake up in the morning for 30 minutes. I drink half a serving of BCAA's right before i start, and finish the other half while working out. I have noticed a difference in endurance ( might be placebo or just in my head ) and i feel more refreshed an hour or so after my workout ( when i get to work )
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#42 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:38 PM

I don't disagree. But I would add that the benefits appear to vary depending on one's training/eating goals.
By my count though, there appear to be 4 participants in favor of BCAA supplementation (to varying degrees), and 4 stating that it isn't "necessary".

But what I also found of particular interest was in the references at the bottom of the page, namely this study:
Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases postexercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects.
"The present study was designed to determine postexercise muscle protein synthesis and whole body protein balance following the combined ingestion of carbohydrate with or without protein and/or free leucine. Eight male subjects were randomly assigned to three trials in which they consumed drinks containing either carbohydrate (CHO), carbohydrate and protein (CHO+PRO), or carbohydrate, protein, and free leucine (CHO+PRO+Leu) following 45 min of resistance exercise. A primed, continuous infusion of L-[ring-13C6]phenylalanine was applied, with blood samples and muscle biopsies collected to assess fractional synthetic rate (FSR) in the vastus lateralis muscle as well as whole body protein turnover during 6 h of postexercise recovery. Plasma insulin response was higher in the CHO+PRO+Leu compared with the CHO and CHO+PRO trials (+240 +/- 19% and +77 +/- 11%, respectively, P < 0.05). Whole body protein breakdown rates were lower, and whole body protein synthesis rates were higher, in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials compared with the CHO trial (P < 0.05). Addition of leucine in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial resulted in a lower protein oxidation rate compared with the CHO+PRO trial. Protein balance was negative during recovery in the CHO trial but positive in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials. In the CHO+PRO+Leu trial, whole body net protein balance was significantly greater compared with values observed in the CHO+PRO and CHO trials (P < 0.05). Mixed muscle FSR, measured over a 6-h period of postexercise recovery, was significantly greater in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial compared with the CHO trial (0.095 +/- 0.006 vs. 0.061 +/- 0.008%/h, respectively, P < 0.05), with intermediate values observed in the CHO+PRO trial (0.0820 +/- 0.0104%/h). We conclude that coingestion of protein and leucine stimulates muscle protein synthesis and optimizes whole body protein balance compared with the intake of carbohydrate only."

Looks like the study makes a good case for adding BCAA Leucine on top of one's existing food intake to me...



what was the source of protein in that study?

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#43 bradray

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:40 PM

Really wonder if they were using whole food sources for protein or using powder

#44 Patrick Arnold

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:41 PM

Only thing i was saying was i do high intensity cardio as soon as i wake up in the morning for 30 minutes. I drink half a serving of BCAA's right before i start, and finish the other half while working out. I have noticed a difference in endurance ( might be placebo or just in my head ) and i feel more refreshed an hour or so after my workout ( when i get to work )


Valine and isoleucine are glucogenic and isoleucine is ketogenic so these can be fueling your muscles in addition to whatever other things they do

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#45 SpiderJerusalem

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:42 PM

what was the source of protein in that study?


Looks like whey (full text).

Here's the specific ingredients list:
Beverage ingredients table

Edited by SpiderJerusalem, 15 April 2014 - 05:45 PM.

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#46 bradray

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:43 PM

This really turned in to a great thread, have learned a lot

#47 SpiderJerusalem

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 05:49 PM

Only thing i was saying was i do high intensity cardio as soon as i wake up in the morning for 30 minutes. I drink half a serving of BCAA's right before i start, and finish the other half while working out. I have noticed a difference in endurance ( might be placebo or just in my head ) and i feel more refreshed an hour or so after my workout ( when i get to work )


I've noticed much the same thing during my 20-mile bike rides. Granted, I'm mixing my BCAA's with some carbs, but I've noticed my legs don't get as shaky toward the end of the ride, and powering up hills seems easier. Even if it's somehow just placebo, I'll take it.

"its fucking lasik surgery for christ sake. relax. its not like you are getting a triple bypass" :facepalm:
--P.A.


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#48 Newb5

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 09:13 PM

You should learn not to defend posters who make blanket-statement dietary claims about everyone, regardless of individual variations.


sorry but i didnt make a blanket statement. closely look at the words i used. i did not say for everyone and everything there is absolutely no purpose lol. i did and do not feel like wasting my time going into all these ridiculous details about it all. do what you want but in most cases this supplement crap is just that.

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#49 SpiderJerusalem

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 09:54 PM

sorry but i didnt make a blanket statement. closely look at the words i used. i did not say for everyone and everything there is absolutely no purpose lol. i did and do not feel like wasting my time going into all these ridiculous details about it all. do what you want but in most cases this supplement crap is just that.


Alrighty then, let's look at what you said:
"theres not much reason to take anything intra or pre or post. eat before and after a workout and thats all you really need."
So, either you're saying here that there is "no" reason to use BCAA's apart from eating food (wrong, as per studies I've already linked to since), or else you're admitting that there *is* a reason but refrain from mentioning it--so which did you actually mean?
Also, that quote from your post above is inherently a "blanket statement"--your wording is a generalization that covers everyone. Or were you speaking only of yourself? Or did you mean some other specific population but forgot to mention which? And the lack of mention or delineation of different training/dieting circumstances would seem to indicate you're treating them all the same. Thus, a blanket statement.

The fact of that matter is that your buddy (who was all butt-hurt about my contradicting you, for some reason, and came out all snippy) subsequently claimed that there was no science to back up the use of BCAA's as offering any kind of advantage to trainers who were otherwise well-fed, whereas I have gone out of my way to present the study links that reveal his statement to be wrong--according to the science, anyway (I can't vouch for what passes for reality inside his skull).

That's fine that you don't want to "waste your time" by trying even just a little bit to present some kind of justification for what otherwise appears to be a baseless claim within the context of existing scientific research, but don't expect everyone else to simply take your word for it.

Edited by SpiderJerusalem, 15 April 2014 - 11:22 PM.

"its fucking lasik surgery for christ sake. relax. its not like you are getting a triple bypass" :facepalm:
--P.A.


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#50 branniganslaw

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 11:30 PM

The fact of that matter is that your buddy (who was all butt-hurt about my contradicting you, for some reason, and came out all snippy) subsequently claimed that there was no science to back up the use of BCAA's as offering any kind of advantage to trainers who were otherwise well-fed, whereas I have gone out of my way to present the study links that reveal his statement to be wrong--according to the science, anyway (I can't vouch for what passes for reality inside his skull).


Awww sweetheart, so nice to know you're still thinking of me :)

Don't worry your pretty little head about me too much, I'm not 'butthurt', I merely realized that trying to have a conversation about the state of the evidence on this topic with someone who shows neither a knowledge of the foundational research in the area, or even the willingness to read and put into context the full text of the papers he references, is an exercise in futility.

But listen, I can tell getting a notch in the win column on this one is really important to you - so if you REALLY want, once you've finished your big victory lap here, maybe you'll find time to finally read the full texts of the papers you cherry picked from other people's articles? When you've had a good read through, and if you ask nicely, we can pick up where we left off. To your credit, the last one you posted actually seems to speak to the point you are trying to argue, so you're really upping your game on that front! ;)

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