Jump to content





Photo
- - - - -

Metformin? Useful At All


50 replies to this topic

#26 WrkHrdPlyHrd9999

WrkHrdPlyHrd9999

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,061 posts

Posted 02 May 2015 - 05:19 AM

Poop. I am interested in this subject too (OTC "replacement" for insulin)

Berberine seems interesting. This Physician seems to suggests and cites a study done that it preferentially makes "muscle cells" more sensitive. http://www.faim.org/...-diabetics.html

Who kmows and that said, I looked into all these GDA's and insulin mimickers years ago and NOT ONE of them seemed to make the glut4 receptors in muscle cells (vs fat cells) more sensitive.

Then again, insulin itself does not prefer muscle cells over fat cells. Lol.

In my limited knowledge of this subject, I'm pretty sure exercising the muscle and then eating a mono  or disaccharide (non-fructose based) would be the best way to get the sugars into the muscle as I don't recall anything that magically makes the muscle-specific response better/preferred.

I'd imagine if one would desire to quell the insulin response associated with carbohydrate ingestion; (so as to not experience the sides: lethargy, inflammatory response intrinsic to insulin) then perhaps the use of a GDA or better than  that, an insulin mimicker, this could assist even more (speculation here) with overall nutrient absoprtion into the muscle cells post-training (but then again, is this even needed?)

 

In for a learning .....

Hey DrCoop: what about the old-school non-exotic choices like vanadium, acetic acid (vinegar), gymnema, r-ala, chromium polynicotinate? Sure, they're not SEXY as the new generation GDA's but are time-tested and sometimes, old school trumps new BS.

Look at the safety profile of Metformin vs Avandia for example! ;)



#27 WrkHrdPlyHrd9999

WrkHrdPlyHrd9999

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,061 posts

Posted 02 May 2015 - 08:45 AM

This seems interesting and germane to this discussion although it's MOA is not as direct as the aforementioned supps/drugs.

https://www.t-nation...ters-fatty-acid

http://www.lef.org/M...1?p=1&checked=1

#28 mr.cooper69

mr.cooper69

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 680 posts

Posted 02 May 2015 - 09:16 AM

Can you link me to the literature that says it blocks digestion of carbs?

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20610860

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10718348


  • milkhouse likes this

#29 mr.cooper69

mr.cooper69

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 680 posts

Posted 02 May 2015 - 09:17 AM

this is what I thought I read and was concerned about...

So in my previous post, is it true that this drug may not be of much benefit to us in regards to better utilizing carbs for muscle energy stores?

Will we be more likely to just crap out more carbs using this drug?

I understand it increases glut4 expression, which is great on it's own, but if the carbs aren't ever getting to the desirable location and this expression isn't significant in muscular tissue, than I don't see much point in a fit adult male taking this in comparison to say, insulin...

(Yes, I was hoping this would be a mellow alternative to insulin)

 

It is only a very light blocker of carb absorption. Most carbs will still be absorbed. The GI issues from metformin are a result of the small amount of unabsorbed carbs that get fermented in the colon



#30 WrkHrdPlyHrd9999

WrkHrdPlyHrd9999

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,061 posts

Posted 02 May 2015 - 09:25 AM

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20610860
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10718348

I say this respectfully BC you know I got man respect for you DrC

Tell me - why is it rat studies are used as "proof" of something in some arguments while they are so quickly dismissed in others. This drives me nuts. Either these studies translate to humans or not. We can't have it both ways.

I understand that certain times the research confers data that will be useful in humans while other times, the extrapolations are rendered completely irrelevant when we novice researchers cite these PubMed research studies.

Well, how the HECK do we know which case and under which curcumstande applies?! If I have one pet peeve, this is it!! Lol

Thanks man!!

#31 milkhouse

milkhouse

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 6,277 posts

Posted 02 May 2015 - 08:48 PM

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20610860
http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/10718348


The second study stated they used 250mg/kg. Does that number translate into human use?
I love you man!

#32 WrkHrdPlyHrd9999

WrkHrdPlyHrd9999

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,061 posts

Posted 03 May 2015 - 02:59 PM

Note to self: Good read on Glut4

https://www.bioscien...20/fulltext.htm

#33 mr.cooper69

mr.cooper69

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 680 posts

Posted 04 May 2015 - 06:28 PM

I say this respectfully BC you know I got man respect for you DrC

Tell me - why is it rat studies are used as "proof" of something in some arguments while they are so quickly dismissed in others. This drives me nuts. Either these studies translate to humans or not. We can't have it both ways.

I understand that certain times the research confers data that will be useful in humans while other times, the extrapolations are rendered completely irrelevant when we novice researchers cite these PubMed research studies.

Well, how the HECK do we know which case and under which curcumstande applies?! If I have one pet peeve, this is it!! Lol

Thanks man!!

 

There's human data too, I just don't have it for you because they are phase II clinical trials. You can do a search on clinicaltrials.gov but I wasn't about to do that from my phone while at work. The links above signify the mechanism for educational purposes.

 

Generally, with meds I'll never extrapolate rat data to humans unless human data exists for a similar mechanism. With supplements, research is more scant with minimal human trials, so a strong understanding of translational research and in vivo correlations is key. Also keep in mind many PHs, DS, AAS are only used in animals. The A:A ratio exists for rats only. So in other words, there is homology between species with certain things, but definitely nowhere near all



#34 mr.cooper69

mr.cooper69

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 680 posts

Posted 04 May 2015 - 06:29 PM

The second study stated they used 250mg/kg. Does that number translate into human use?

 

I'm just posting the mechanism of action regarding blockade of glucose absorption. This finding does exist in human trials. The higher the dose, the higher the malabsorption and GI distress. It's not a primary mechanism, but it is generally established in medical practice that it exists


  • milkhouse likes this

#35 milkhouse

milkhouse

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 6,277 posts

Posted 04 May 2015 - 07:00 PM

I'm just posting the mechanism of action regarding blockade of glucose absorption. This finding does exist in human trials. The higher the dose, the higher the malabsorption and GI distress. It's not a primary mechanism, but it is generally established in medical practice that it exists


Thank you sir
I love you man!

#36 WrkHrdPlyHrd9999

WrkHrdPlyHrd9999

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,061 posts

Posted 05 May 2015 - 07:11 AM

Thanks DrC

#37 Pretzel Logic

Pretzel Logic

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts

Posted 15 May 2015 - 10:20 PM

It only ever made me feel shitty. It would probably be good for restoring insulin sensitivity after extended use. I don't think it is going to be any more anabolic than alpha lipoic acid. I liked avandia for insulin sensitivity, but again, don't mess with that either if you are hoping for some anabolic synergy with GH. Just use a little insulin, or glipizide. No offense, but the research and understanding of how these things work, in this thread would make me not recommend insulin or glipizide and related use without more research.

#38 mr.cooper69

mr.cooper69

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 680 posts

Posted 15 May 2015 - 11:21 PM

It only ever made me feel shitty. It would probably be good for restoring insulin sensitivity after extended use. I don't think it is going to be any more anabolic than alpha lipoic acid. I liked avandia for insulin sensitivity, but again, don't mess with that either if you are hoping for some anabolic synergy with GH. Just use a little insulin, or glipizide. No offense, but the research and understanding of how these things work, in this thread would make me not recommend insulin or glipizide and related use without more research.

 

A little confused, I see. Metformin is actually catabolic (activator of AMPK). It has opposing effects to insulin in many ways, which is how it restores insulin sensitivity. Wouldn't touch any glitazone including avandia if on AAS, and as you mentioned, glipizide can be equally as dangerous as insulin, especially in a non-diabetic



#39 swim21

swim21

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 5,540 posts

Posted 14 June 2015 - 10:04 PM

Gonna throw in my .02 and say that metformin is absolutely not a drug I would use or abuse for these purposes. From what I know I wouldn't even recommend it for someone prediabetic considering the side effects.

Use exercise and diet to increase sensitivity. Period.
  • seabiscuit hogg likes this

#40 poopypants

poopypants

    Anabolic Poo!

  • Members
  • 4,960 posts

Posted 14 June 2015 - 10:20 PM

Slin sane... Love the original pslin formula and yellow gold combo....

Gymnema Sylvestre, banaba, ALA, berberine are more than enough to offer positive insulin like effects that are plenty strong enough to evoke good glucose disposal, nutrient shuttling and even hypoglycemia without the absolute danger of insulin(yet can make you extremely sick feeling if your sensitive).
Luuurkin...

#41 poopypants

poopypants

    Anabolic Poo!

  • Members
  • 4,960 posts

Posted 14 June 2015 - 10:23 PM

Would love if metformin had all the benefits of an ideal gda, with no sides, but between this thread and another going on elsewhere, I've decided against metformin use.
Luuurkin...

#42 seabiscuit hogg

seabiscuit hogg

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,901 posts

Posted 31 August 2015 - 01:04 PM

Gonna throw in my .02 and say that metformin is absolutely not a drug I would use or abuse for these purposes. From what I know I wouldn't even recommend it for someone prediabetic considering the side effects.
Use exercise and diet to increase sensitivity. Period.

and ursolic acid

#43 Yellowsnow

Yellowsnow

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 408 posts

Posted 01 September 2015 - 06:08 PM

I have taken a run with metformin for the past 3 weeks.  I have come off a very restricted diet for the past few months and if seems to be magical ( bro science here we come).  I take 500mgs with each large carb meal.  I am gaining weight but at a much lower rate than when I did the same thing last year with ALA.

 

Maybe it is blocking the carbs, maybe it isn't.  All I know is that my insulin sensitivity should be very good since I do a lot of keto based dieting.

 

Bottom line for me so far that I can eat more food and gain less fat; even when carbs are relatively high.



#44 deezle1

deezle1

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,236 posts

Posted 02 September 2015 - 04:22 PM

just read that metformin can lower testosterone production. deal breaker imo.


Go w/ Epi-Andro

#45 Scope75

Scope75

    ............

  • Members
  • 1,182 posts

Posted 02 September 2015 - 06:53 PM

just read that metformin can lower testosterone production. deal breaker imo.

Won't lower your test when your injecting it.
  • poopypants likes this

#46 WrkHrdPlyHrd9999

WrkHrdPlyHrd9999

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,061 posts

Posted 03 September 2015 - 04:42 AM

I have taken a run with metformin for the past 3 weeks. I have come off a very restricted diet for the past few months and if seems to be magical ( bro science here we come). I take 500mgs with each large carb meal. I am gaining weight but at a much lower rate than when I did the same thing last year with ALA.

Maybe it is blocking the carbs, maybe it isn't. All I know is that my insulin sensitivity should be very good since I do a lot of keto based dieting.

Bottom line for me so far that I can eat more food and gain less fat; even when carbs are relatively high.


Nice!

How do you "typically" respond to carbs w/o the assistance of any insulin mimetics or GDA's?

#47 Yellowsnow

Yellowsnow

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 408 posts

Posted 03 September 2015 - 07:27 AM

Nice!

How do you "typically" respond to carbs w/o the assistance of any insulin mimetics or GDA's?

I would say I respond average, never got much from ALA did better on vanadyl.  You and I both do a lot of keto dieting, and I know from your past posts that you and carbs aren't always the best of friends.

 

I would think it would be worth a try especially when coming off a keto diet.



#48 WrkHrdPlyHrd9999

WrkHrdPlyHrd9999

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,061 posts

Posted 04 September 2015 - 10:41 AM

Correct. Carbs are the DEVIL for me. Lol.

Similarly, GDA's have all been rather lackluster for me.

#49 deezle1

deezle1

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,236 posts

Posted 04 September 2015 - 04:14 PM

while we're here, might as well ask. so has anyone found any of the GDA supplements beneficial? I've never used one but always wondered how effective they could be.


Go w/ Epi-Andro

#50 Scope75

Scope75

    ............

  • Members
  • 1,182 posts

Posted 04 September 2015 - 05:36 PM

Best GDA is lifting heavy then eating your carbs.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users